"Old South" states and "New South" states

[kayman]

I actually think that is an interesting point - one that I have considered, not specifically regarding 'old south' but for general regional arguments. I can recall much arguing between Alabama forummers some time ago about how terrible southern Alabama was. The belief was that because that Montgomery held political power over the state & diverted funds to the southern half was a handicap for northern Alabama. But it did occur to me that in a sense that could be viewed as a racial arguement - as a large percentage of southern Alabama is Black & the majority of northern Alabama is White (if I am correct).

Nonetheless - I am not clear about your connection that discussing a region of the country as 'old south' is necessarily a bad thing. I think the intent is that these regions are considered to lack the infrastructure & investment that goes largely to the 'new south' regions. In a sense - these are the forgotten areas of the south. I don't see this as a evil vs. good case, especially viewing your comparison as urbanism vs. suburbanism. If you were to compare the two - then it would be the 'new south' that would be treated negatively, because as the case is with suburbanism, there is greater mobility among people in the new south.

[Alabadrock]

Outside of the Mobile and Montgomery areas the southern portion is generally economically depressed, but it is far from being a demographically homogeneous region of a black populous. In actuality, the majority of the black population of Alabama lives in the in Greater Birmingham, Montgomery and surrounding areas, Mobile, and west central portions of the state (between Tuscaloosa and Demopolis). The "North Alabama" versus "South Alabama" situation isn't any way shape or form racially-motivated, but rather as originally stated a "New South" versus "Old South" cultural battle.

Back to the topic, generally speaking Alabama is a split state with parts of it New South industries like Birmingham and Huntsville and other parts still Old South with heavy industry. However, places like Anniston and Gadsden, which are in the North Alabama are still Old South places because both still heavily rely upon heavy industry and manufacturing-based economies.

I may contradict myself with the last statement, but as Spartan said, no state as a whole is "New" or "Old". Instead, they are a combination of the 2 with pockets all over the place.

[triadcat]

Very interesting thread, Krazeeboi.

I see what you are saying with the "Old South" and "New South" comparisons.

But I think it is way more complex than that.

I sometimes prefer what I call: "Old NC" compared to "New NC". Generally, "New North Carolina/ NC" is the I-40/85 corridor. But towns like Asheville or Wilmington could also be grouped within the I-40/85 corridor by your definitions here.

Same thing for the Outer Banks.

But there are other highly educated, prosperous places like the Sandhills area that I consider "Old NC". I call it that because the people there have preserved the area very well........hardly any strip development and is very well manicured/kept up. The Sandhills area is like NC 50-100 years ago.......but preserved and in great condition with hardly any big box development or sprawl. It's one of my favorite places; it's beautiful.

[CapeFearRiver10]

So your saying the Fayetteville area is "old south". Wow I'm sure the surrounding areas like clinton, Laurinburg, Hope Mills, Raeford, Lumberton, Dunn, Pinecrest, & Lillington. My favorites "old south NC" is Morehead city, Elizabeth City, Goldsboro (which I feel is very underrated).

[triadcat]

So your saying the Fayetteville area is "old south". Wow I'm sure the surrounding areas like clinton, Laurinburg, Hope Mills, Raeford, Lumberton, Dunn, Pinecrest, & Lillington. My favorites "old south NC" is Morehead city, Elizabeth City, Goldsboro (which I feel is very underrated).

[Gavdog28]

I love how Florida was bunched into this category. Save for the panhandle, Florida is not remotely a southern state except for geographically. It's hard to calssify things as "New South" and "Old South". For instance, you say that Arkansas is "Old South", however, even though I hate them, Walmart, the largest company in America is based in Arkansas. As well as Tyson Chicken, JB Hunt Transport, Alltel, and Dillards, NONE of which are "manufacturing" jobs. Furthermore, outside of New York, more money changes hands in Little Rock, AR than any other place in the country because of Stephens Inc. Yes, we do have the delta, which is amoung one of the poorest regions in the country, so big business is not going to want to set up shop there, so they try to lure in manufacturing jobs, which is more along the lines of what people in those areas are able and willing ot do.

It was mentioned earlier that Arkansas is not a true southern state through and through, which is correct. Here's why. It is at the crossroads of three regions of the United States: Southwest, Midwest, and Southeast. These all influence Arkansas, and it is very unique. Another example, it is still a pretty democratic state, with all state constitutional offices currently held by democrats, all but one member of Congress, both House and Senate, are democrats, and of course, one of the most recognized Democrats in history, Mr. Bill Clinton, was brought to you in part by the great state of Arkansas. I think that those early classifications are very arbitrary and biased.

[teshadoh]

I'll fall for the argument - Florida is the south. It might be different from the rest of the south, but so is Louisville, northern Virginia, New Orleans & east Texas. Not to mention, as I'm rather familiar with the Leesburg area, it is VERY southern in central Florida. Your argument may be truer regarding 'southernness' if it was based on the argument that much of Florida is dominated by modern suburbanism.

[CorgiMatt]

You've got that right. I saw a show on the National Geographic channel last night about three different women in Florida getting killed by alligators in a span of a couple of weeks. They showed views from above of man-made canals all over the place, lining the backyards of row after row of suburban houses. Duh... of course you're gonna be gator meat if you choose to live in such developments. One will getcha when you least expect it. My urban spatial analytics antennae get static when I see such irresponsible land use.

[NcSc74]

So your saying the Fayetteville area is "old south". Wow I'm sure the surrounding areas like clinton, Laurinburg, Hope Mills, Raeford, Lumberton, Dunn, Pinecrest, & Lillington. My favorites "old south NC" is Morehead city, Elizabeth City, Goldsboro (which I feel is very underrated).

[Sammy00]

I love how Florida was bunched into this category. Save for the panhandle, Florida is not remotely a southern state except for geographically. It's hard to calssify things as "New South" and "Old South". For instance, you say that Arkansas is "Old South", however, even though I hate them, Walmart, the largest company in America is based in Arkansas. As well as Tyson Chicken, JB Hunt Transport, Alltel, and Dillards, NONE of which are "manufacturing" jobs. Furthermore, outside of New York, more money changes hands in Little Rock, AR than any other place in the country because of Stephens Inc. Yes, we do have the delta, which is amoung one of the poorest regions in the country, so big business is not going to want to set up shop there, so they try to lure in manufacturing jobs, which is more along the lines of what people in those areas are able and willing ot do.

It was mentioned earlier that Arkansas is not a true southern state through and through, which is correct. Here's why. It is at the crossroads of three regions of the United States: Southwest, Midwest, and Southeast. These all influence Arkansas, and it is very unique. Another example, it is still a pretty democratic state, with all state constitutional offices currently held by democrats, all but one member of Congress, both House and Senate, are democrats, and of course, one of the most recognized Democrats in history, Mr. Bill Clinton, was brought to you in part by the great state of Arkansas. I think that those early classifications are very arbitrary and biased.

[beltwayboy07]

Richmond, VIRGINIA, was the capital of the Confederacy, and therefore the heart of the South. Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were from Virginia. It is the "Old South because of it having the first permanently established English colony in the "New World," Jamestown. This definately makes it the old south. It is, has always been, and will always be the leading producer of tobacco, which is the "Cash Crop" of the South. Virginia started the south. It received the first slaves from Africa in the early 1600's. Virginia's slave trade is much older than South Carilina's. Without Virginia, there would be no South.

[Alabadrock]

Richmond, VIRGINIA, was the capital of the Confederacy, and therefore the heart of the South. Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were from Virginia. It is the "Old South because of it having the first permanently established English colony in the "New World," Jamestown. This definately makes it the old south. It is, has always been, and will always be the leading producer of tobacco, which is the "Cash Crop" of the South. Virginia started the south. It received the first slaves from Africa in the early 1600's. Virginia's slave trade is much older than South Carilina's. Without Virginia, there would be no South.

[912]

Richmond, VIRGINIA, was the capital of the Confederacy, and therefore the heart of the South. Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were from Virginia. It is the "Old South because of it having the first permanently established English colony in the "New World," Jamestown. This definately makes it the old south. It is, has always been, and will always be the leading producer of tobacco, which is the "Cash Crop" of the South. Virginia started the south. It received the first slaves from Africa in the early 1600's. Virginia's slave trade is much older than South Carilina's. Without Virginia, there would be no South.

[davidals]

Ok...to just confine things to cities, howsabout another definition of "old South" and "new South"?: Major cities (or cities exerting some regional/national influence at cultural and/or economic levels) pre-WWII as Old South, and cities that were small (or tiny) until the postwar years -

Old South:

Memphis

New Orleans

Birmingham

Louisville

Mobile

Savannah

Charleston

Wilmington

Richmond

Atlanta

New South:

Charlotte

Raleigh

Nashville

Huntsville

Columbia

Greenville

NoVa metro

Lexington

Fayetteville (AR & NC)

Atlanta

I don't know how I'd class Atlanta, which maybe shoots a hole in my categorization - Atlanta was very small in population pre-Civil War, though it (by virtue of location) was still a regional center, and it has held on to (at least) some of it's older mystique while also reinventing itself. This could be true of other cities - witness the dramatic rebirth of Charleston or Asheville during the last 20-30 years, after several very moribund decades.

[Alabadrock]

I don't know how I'd class Atlanta, which maybe shoots a hole in my categorization - Atlanta was very small in population pre-Civil War, though it (by virtue of location) was still a regional center, and it has held on to (at least) some of it's older mystique while also reinventing itself. This could be true of other cities - witness the dramatic rebirth of Charleston or Asheville during the last 20-30 years, after several very moribund decades.

[ATLBrain]

Ok...to just confine things to cities, howsabout another definition of "old South" and "new South"?: Major cities (or cities exerting some regional/national influence at cultural and/or economic levels) pre-WWII as Old South, and cities that were small (or tiny) until the postwar years -

Old South:

Memphis

New Orleans

Birmingham

Louisville

Mobile

Savannah

Charleston

Wilmington

Richmond

Atlanta

New South:

Charlotte

Raleigh

Nashville

Huntsville

Columbia

Greenville

NoVa metro

Lexington

Fayetteville (AR & NC)

Atlanta

I don't know how I'd class Atlanta, which maybe shoots a hole in my categorization - Atlanta was very small in population pre-Civil War, though it (by virtue of location) was still a regional center, and it has held on to (at least) some of it's older mystique while also reinventing itself. This could be true of other cities - witness the dramatic rebirth of Charleston or Asheville during the last 20-30 years, after several very moribund decades.

[krazeeboi]

^I don't think his list was exhaustive.

[beltwayboy07]

Good list, now what about texas? And Louisiville is not in the South (only Southern Kentucky can be even considered for that)! And if you added Greenville in there, why did'nt you add Norfolk?

And I think your categorization should be pre/post Civil War... that fits much better. Just about every city on the list was established before the Civil War. So maybe even pre/post Mexican War (LOL!)!

Columbia, SC was the largest inland city in America (or CSA) in the 1850's and 1860's!

[kjice2]

why is Hampton Roads not on the list. THE Nation began in Hampton Roads. every thing began here

[Alabadrock]

I think the reason why he didn't include some cities, was because they just didn't instantly pop in his head. I doubt he was intending to make a definitive list. Probably just the cities he thought of at the moment.

[krazeeboi]

Geesh y'all, I just got finished saying that his list probably wasn't exhaustive. So please, get over it.

And Louisville is very much Southern.

[Alabadrock]

I'm beginning to wonder if there's any point to these arguments anymore. We've all established that we don't believe some cities are Southern. I think it's going to be pretty impossible to say which city is more "Old Southish" than another. Let's just accept that every city is old, and most all of them are also new.

[912]

Good list, now what about texas?

[BrandonTO416]

The entire south will remain solidly in the old south if it keeps voting for people like Bush and it will continue to be the old south if radical religiousity continues to be a factor at any level.

While many of you will disagree, most people outside the south feel the same as I do.

[ATLman1]

texas may be in the south, but it's definately not a Southern state.