Downtown Detroit Development

[TheDetroitCity99]

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/econdevel/mayor_message.htm

Looks like the Develupment is happening it's just going to take time, i say in 4 years detroit can reclaim it's name as paris of the west and forget the name, the slums of the midwest, LONG LIVE DETROIT

[Zissou]

Huh? What develOPment are you talking about?

[Gangway1111]

Perhaps the cheesecake factory could be built on the ground floor of a mid-rise building, like the one in the john hancock building in chicago.

[Michi]

TheDetCity, you've got great enthusiam, but when you think of Detroit's renaissance it has to be in long-term. There's no doubt you're going to see a lot of positive progress being made in Detroit, but this is short-term. After studying the area and its history for a while now, I can confidently say that the city won't (and really can't) reclaim much of any of its grandiose past in 4 years. To put things into perspective, just think back 4 years. Though a lot has changed physically downtown and in particular other spots around the city, and progress has been made socially, the city still has slid a lot.

So, regarding whether you should move or not based solely on how the city performs by improving itself...it's really hard to say. If 4 years is your deciding point, then you can expect a lot of what you see currently. Major improvements like mass transit and Cobo expansions take many years. So, maybe we will have a plan for transit, maybe not. Either way, a train having a seat with your name on it won't be traveling down Woodward for at least another 8-10 years. You'll see more strategic improvents, and I believe more exciting ones, but you'll also see the city adapt to a smaller tax base...which means it lost more people.

You can stay or you can leave, but if you stay, you should have a good understanding that things will take time, but if you get involved, you can be a part of some pretty neat and significant change. It won't be for you though if you don't have any patience.

All the best!

[detwaa84]

I completely agree with having pateince. It's like weight loss. Don't loose too quickly or you'll gain it back. Well, I don't know how that would work with Detroit....

The only thing that always haunts me is that what if, just what if the next mayor of Detroit is another Coleman Young that will stop and reverse all of the progress. Does anyone think that is likely or are the current and all future mayors just spokesman for the real big bossess at GM, Penske, and Compuware. Do you get what I mean?

Someone needs to pay JoAnn Watson alot of money to leave Detorit for good.

[Michi]

^Haha...that made me laugh.

Seriously though, there is some fishy leadership in this city.

[RustTown]

That made me laugh, too.

Mayor Young had many faults, but one could never paint him as anti-development, and specifically anti-downtown. One of the biggest complaints against him from even his supporters is that he totally forgot the neighborhoods.

Zissou,

There was a TV station proposal for the Monroe Block, specifically, a few years ago that had got the mayor's office backing. I forget what killed it, but it, indeed, was to have only been 3 or 4 stories. I suspect what killed it is the fact that even the least development minded person in the administration could see that would have been a gross underuse of the site.

Speaking of Campus Martius, I've been in very sporadic contact with Greg Erne, Chief Investment Officer of Redico (builders of One Kennedy), and I was asking him about the Hudson Block, which they were granted development rights to nearly two years ago, now. While he would not answer my question of whether they were given an extension of development rights, he did say something new that surprised me, and that was that the Hudson Block can only hold a max of 10 stories evenly distributed over the site. He said that for it to hold more in different massings, additional foundation work would need to be completed. I wonder how much that would cost?

He also informed me that the city is really pushing for a lot of residential at the Hudson Block, because the office market is so poor, but that the downtown couldn't sustain another huge residential development at the moment, which is why nothing much has come of the site. I guess that means that it won't be developed until a. the current downtown housing market has the time to absorb the current wave of condos/lofts or b. the office market picks up.

DetroitCity,

DevelOpment.

[TheDetroitCity99]

Huh? What develOPment are you talking about?

[TheDetroitCity99]

TheDetCity, you've got great enthusiam, but when you think of Detroit's renaissance it has to be in long-term. There's no doubt you're going to see a lot of positive progress being made in Detroit, but this is short-term. After studying the area and its history for a while now, I can confidently say that the city won't (and really can't) reclaim much of any of its grandiose past in 4 years. To put things into perspective, just think back 4 years. Though a lot has changed physically downtown and in particular other spots around the city, and progress has been made socially, the city still has slid a lot.

So, regarding whether you should move or not based solely on how the city performs by improving itself...it's really hard to say. If 4 years is your deciding point, then you can expect a lot of what you see currently. Major improvements like mass transit and Cobo expansions take many years. So, maybe we will have a plan for transit, maybe not. Either way, a train having a seat with your name on it won't be traveling down Woodward for at least another 8-10 years. You'll see more strategic improvents, and I believe more exciting ones, but you'll also see the city adapt to a smaller tax base...which means it lost more people.

You can stay or you can leave, but if you stay, you should have a good understanding that things will take time, but if you get involved, you can be a part of some pretty neat and significant change. It won't be for you though if you don't have any patience.

All the best!

[Jasoncw]

That's weird LMichigan, I thought that Hudson's block could not hold an even building, and that different areas of the site could support different weights (leading to a design like the one we saw from kraemer). I think I like this better though, since I don't think a plaza type development would be very good right there.

Hopefully something good gets built there. I have a feeling it's going to look like the Griswold Garage, but with people instead of cars, and while I think that was really good for what it was, it's not what I'd want for the Hudson's Block.

What do you guys think should go there?

[Zissou]

I think something along the lines of the Kraemer proposal should go there. I liked the massing and style of it a lot. We did have some debate over the plaza but I think overall thats the best looking thing to come out for this to this point.

[hudkina]

I don't think 10 stories on the Hudson's block is that bad if it is not set back from the street. If it is only 10 stories, I'd almost prefer to see a mirror image of Merchant's Row with different buildings all connected together housing condos and apartments.

[Allan]

I did like KDG's proposal...minus the plaza. I've never been a big fan of plazas, but that's just personal preference.

[RustTown]

I don't think 10 stories on the Hudson's block is that bad if it is not set back from the street. If it is only 10 stories, I'd almost prefer to see a mirror image of Merchant's Row with different buildings all connected together housing condos and apartments.

[detwaa84]

If it's 10 stories residential, then expect a building that is half of Compuware. Office is significanlty higher. Look at MGM at 17 stories, and the IRS building across the street at 10. You'd expect a noticable diffrance, but MGM looks only slightly higher.

Personally, I don't think it should all be at 10 stories. Maybe they can be very creative and make the building look like a bunch of buildings with diffrent facades and heights. That way we don't have such a significant drop from 15 stories at compuware to 10 stories here. Plus, it's the heart of Woodward Ave (main st detroit), and should look and feel urban and un-organized.

Most likely the 10 stories will only be built on the Woodward side. It's a large block and I think it's unlikely that it will be covered entirely. It will either have a court yard or the back (facing the PM) will be a parking garage with MAYBE some additional stories. That's only a guess and only if it's residential. An office or an office/residential complex is a diffrent story and would probably look like KDG's premliminary sketch, which in my opinion is brilliant (for somewhere else).

[RustTown]

That's only if its a residential building. I'd imagine they'll wait long enough to get it thoroughly mixed use. Those usually have taller residential floors when their mixed us.

[Zissou]

It's a large block and I think it's unlikely that it will be covered entirely. It will either have a court yard or the back (facing the PM) will be a parking garage with MAYBE some additional stories.

[Gangway1111]

Am I the only one here who thinks that we should be going taller than 10 stories for the heart of downtown Detroit, I mean its campus martius we are talking about here, like our version of times square in NY, I would much rather have a 20-25 story building there, with that cheesecake factory on the bottom floor.

[Zissou]

I like the Kraemer design which looks like its building are at least as tall as Compuware or a little bit taller. I like that height right there, and the massing helps to avoid the "Hudson's" effect. But what part of Campus Martius reminds you of Times Square? They are completely different concepts.

[detwaa84]

So you think they are going to build a parking garage on top of an underground parking garage?

[Zissou]

I really doubt any parking will be placed on top. The city spent lots of money on the underground lot and across the street is the giant 1001 garage.

I wouldnt expect any more hotels going up anytime soon. With Book Caddy, the 3 Casinos, and the prospect of the Fort Shelby the market is gonna stretched a little.

[Jasoncw]

Well, I think that they planned it so that the garage could support 10 stories of weight, and 10 stories of parking demand. Aren't there like, 4 levels? Hudsons has a large area, so that's a lot of parking. Half of the overall building would be parking.

If I were designing it, I'd probably end up having it be a 10 story slab of building along Woodward, and then shorter on the Farmer side, with gyms and pools and patios and retail and all of that kind of stuff on the first few floors.

I think it's possible to design a building there that wouldn't feel like a mega building, without separating the buildings, or faking it with multiple facades, they'd just need to hire really good architects. idk

The chances of getting a hotel there aren't bad. The Kraemer design we've brought up included office, residential, hotel, and of course retail.

[RustTown]

Ok, and update. But first, to answer the question about the parking, the Hudson site comes with the 4-story underground Premiere Garage with 1,023 spaces, which is more than enough for a potential development atop especially considering the parking within walking distance of the site.

Now, for the update, Kraemer Design Group got back to me, today, saying that they are working under the premise that the garage can support a maximum of 25 floors on PART of the site. He says that different parts of the site can hold different loads, but no one really seems to know for sure until they work out specific plans for the site.

Most importantly, he tells me that the garage was never designed to hold a uniform load over the entire site, so this almost certainly means there will be multiple buildings on the site, or at least one building with different massing across the site.

[Jasoncw]

So Redico says 10 floors evenly distributed, Kraemer says 25 max in some spots but NOTHING evenly distributed, DetroitYes says an 80 story Cheescake Factory Global HQ, so confusing.

[RustTown]

lol!