Hillsborough & Morgan St

[ChiefJoJo]

Thanks for the update, Chief. I'm a little confused about the part of Ashe Ave's stoplight...they're gonna remove it all (except for ped signal) and disallow left turns? I don't think I like that part at all. That'd mean anyone going from downtown to Pullen Park would then have to use Pullen Road thru NCSU. Or anyone coming up Ashe would be forced to turn right into downtown? Er...not sure about this part.

Otherwise, most of it sounds ok from what you say.

You'll understand once I post the pics, but it's like this...

These turns you will be able to make:

1. NB Ashe to EB Hillsborough

2. EB Hillsborough to SB Ashe

3. WB Hillsborough to SB Ashe

This one, you won't:

4. NB Ashe to WB Hillsborough

#4 is the turn highlighted on your post in bold--yes, they would be forced towards downtown, but remember they can drive just a few hundred feet WB to the new roundabout, enter and do a 180, and zoom, they'll be driving WB to NCSU... just a little indirectly.

Really, the highest volume moves IIRC are turns #1 & 3, as you described, so in the end, it's probably for the best... again, no traffic signal, except triggered by peds. I think it will function very well.

This is the "bypass" lane option plan:

This is the traffic simulation for the same option (with few backups shown):

This is the no bypass, single WB lane approach option, which shows fairly long backups at rush hour:

[RaleighRob]

Again, Chief, thanks for the info. Very interesting.

I guess I don't mind the Ashe-to-WB-Hillsborough option being you have to do a u-turn thru the circle...we'll see what the residents of those neighborhoods off Ashe think, though.

The bypass lane looks interesting...I'm more for that one simply because it gives Hillsborough an additional WB lane to handle traffic.

But it looks like Hillsborough doesn't get an additional Eastbound lane...which worries me some since Morgan will be losing one of its EB lanes.

Either way, it still seems like an improvement to a currently crazy setup.

[orulz]

Thanks for the updates ChiefJoJo.

I kind of go back and forth on this, but right now I'm kind of thinking I'd rather see a signal here, even at the expense of rush-hour backups. But like the NCSU portion of Hillsborough I'm willing to see the roundabout plan move forward, just so SOMETHING gets done.

I guess I'm not a big fan of roundabouts in areas as urban as Hillsborough Street. Here in the US, we tend to make a big deal about how "pedestrian friendly" they are, but I really don't think that's true. In the UK, pretty much the home of the modern roundabout, they're used on suburban roads with low traffic volume where no special accomodations for pedestrians are needed, on high volume suburban roads with pushbutton pedestrian signals on ALL approaches, or on highways built with no accomodation for pedestrians whatsoever. In urban, densely built, walkable areas, like this section of Hillsborough (should/will be?) they use regular traffic signals. There's a reason for that - expecting pedestrians to cross in front of vehicles that are expecting to not have to stop is a pretty big conflict.

There are some schools of urban planning and road design that will tell you engineering all the potential conflicts out of a road design is not good and advocate something along the lines of a woonerf. But that certainly isn't what DOT and the city have in mind with this design. Vehicle/Pedestrian conflicts like this on a 35mph road that carries this much traffic (even if the have a 15mph caution sign for the roundabout) are, in my mind, a BAD thing.

[Jones_]

What are the traffic counts at this point? I have never had the feeling that much traffic passes this intersection compared to other rush house arteries.....Interstate access to downtown puts people coming in east, south and north of downtown, and people working at NC State tend to not need to pass through here either.....the need to travel along this NC State/downtown vector is one I tend to use outside of rush hour and it seems to me that would apply to lots of other folks too. It apepars to my unproffessional eye and experience that the Councils statment that this is a major artery are a little overstated. I am not making a statement though on what I think is best for this intersection...just trying to revisit the baseline considerations....

[ncwebguy]

If NB Ashe to WB Hillsborough traffic doesn't want to use the roundabout, they can take Dexter to Parke or Cox (which will probably keep its signal at Hillsborough).

The no left turn from Ashe to WB Hillsborugh is a small price to pay for EB traffic, since the "no turn on red" makes otherwise easy right turns into a long wait.

I am glad St. Mary's is doing something to make the street experience better there, but it seems like bad timing on their part. It seems like they did it to "save" their land vs. a wider roundabout. And they look like condos/apartments, with no office/retail. Though they also own that white brick building, so maybe they have plans for that? Or they don't want to compete with the warehouse redevelopment? I think the IHOP to Goodnights (or even Morgan Street laundrymat) stretch could be something interesting once the hole in the middle created by the warehouse is put to better use.

[orulz]

All the buildings on the north side of Hillsborough between Hillcrest and Oberlin, except for perhaps one or two historic houses, are 1- and 2- story, 1960s-1980s office buildings that do a terrible job of activating what should be a prime stretch of one of Raleigh's signature streets. All of these should be redeveloped into low- to mid-rise mixed use builidngs. That would connect NCSU to the Hillsborough/Morgan area a lot better.

I'd redo the streetscape, too, but I'd be reasonably content to leave the south side as it is for now. With the new YMCA, the Brownstone, the Velvet Cloak, and Pullen Baptist anchoring things, it's not perfectly urban but it's good enough for now.

[RaleighRob]

I am glad St. Mary's is doing something to make the street experience better there, but it seems like bad timing on their part. It seems like they did it to "save" their land vs. a wider roundabout. And they look like condos/apartments, with no office/retail. Though they also own that white brick building, so maybe they have plans for that? Or they don't want to compete with the warehouse redevelopment?

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I'm pretty sure the white brick building is their main Science lab buildings. The map on their website says Biology & Chemistry/Physics. As for the new buildings, I wasn't sure if they were apartments/dorms or new classrooms. I didn't see them mentioned on the website, although I may have not looked hard enough.

[rjgeary]

The new buildings at St. Mary's are faculty housing -- to have eyes on the campus as more residential students (H.S. girls) enroll. The St. Mary's leadership is much improved these days, imo.

[Jones_]

I think those low intensity office buildings from this heading towards Hillcrest that Orulz mentioned are a result of Cameron Park residents having some say so about what ended up adjacent to their neghborhood (I believe a 40 something NC grad told me). I want to say the zoning ended up so that commercial uses and heights were limited but I do not know much about zoning. They of course removed some wonderful victorian houses that predated Cameron Park for this crud, Preiss Company, Republican Party HQ, etc.

[ncwebguy]

Having Cameron Village a few blocks away replaced the need and/or desire for significant retail devloping in the Hillsborough Street corridor. So not only did it lead to downtown's downturn, it also inhibited the potential for the Hillsborough corridor. There are a couple of surviving houses -- is AFL-CIO still there? That catering business? A couple of houses west of IHOP -- but the most is unintersting with a parking lot buffer between them and the neighborhood.

[waltergropius]

Check out this write up with the Public Hearing Map and an animation of the proposed Roundabout at Hillsborough Street and Morgan Street on newRaleigh.com

Hillsborough Roundabout article

[waltergropius]

The decision for this roundabout was delayed again. From what I could tell, the engineers havn't done anything since the last meeting. In fact, they only presented one option this time, whereas they had two last time. AND, the one they presented was the sloppier option that met the most criticism.

Image of the Morgan Roundabout Design

[ChiefJoJo]

Council will consider this tomorrow:

E. SPECIAL ITEMS

1. Roundabouts/Street Improvements - Morgan/Hillsborough Intersection

During the October 2, 2007, Council meeting, a hearing was held to consider improvements at the Morgan Street/Hillsborough Street intersection including a roundabout. Following the presentation and public hearing, Council requested additional information relative to the proposed improvements including information on a T-intersection, deletion of bypass lane, etc., and directed the item be placed on this agenda to receive the information and consider the proposal further.

[JeffC]

WRAL reports that the City council will vote today on the Morgan/Hillsborough roundabout. Sounds like it is going to sail through, though you never know when Taliaferro or Kekas will choose to put their personal preferences over years of planning involving hundreds of local residents...

[orulz]

The article doesn't seem to indicate one way or another whether this will sail through. If the previous meeting on the subject is any indication, unless the recommended design has changed significantly, this will be far from a sure thing.

The last time this went before council, the staff recommendation was for a roundabout with a "bypass lane." I think that when this recommendation was presented, staff kind of went said "Here's our recommended design, and here's the proof that it will handle the traffic." This met with opposition not just from Taliaferro, but from Meeker and others too. At that meeting, council asked staff to come back later with alternatives that further de-emphasize vehicular capcity (such as a roundabout with no bypass lane, or a T-intersecion.) On the agenda for today is staff reporting back to City Council on the above.

[DanRNC]

I think its pretty funny that it takes Raleigh this long to plan and construct some roundabouts-you kind of have to wonder how in the world these people can actually tackle larger issues such as mass transit but I guess that is the general state of the US these days.

[ChiefJoJo]

The council apparently delayed a decision again:

N&O:

The City Council will hold a public hearing next month to discuss whether to place a roundabout at Hillsborough and Morgan streets.

[DPK]

The council apparently delayed a decision again:

N&O:

The City Council will hold a public hearing next month to discuss whether to place a roundabout at Hillsborough and Morgan streets.

[urbanesq]

Do you think that's in order to let the new Council get seated?

[ChiefJoJo]

The hearing on this is planned for Dec 11 at Pullen Arts Center at 6pm (105 Pullen Rd near the NCSU Bell Tower).

[orulz]

The public hearing is coming up tomorrow. I suspect that finally we we will hear about some alternatives to the bypass lane roundabout design. The public hearing notice on the city

[Jones_]

I could go with that too Orulz. Some nice boom siganls to continue the work westward from St Marys intersection and continue the sidewalk improvements recently completed around Snoopys. 1001 Hillsborough St condos and the new St Marys staff housing would look nice with better sidewalks, then put some good pedestrian crossings at Morgan Hillsborough and it should function and look good.

[DPK]

I could go with that too Orulz. Some nice boom siganls to continue the work westward from St Marys intersection and continue the sidewalk improvements recently completed around Snoopys. 1001 Hillsborough St condos and the new St Marys staff housing would look nice with better sidewalks, then put some good pedestrian crossings at Morgan Hillsborough and it should function and look good.

I think that'd look pretty good now that I picture it in my head. At this point I'll be happy when they finally pick any strategy and run with it. I hope that tomorrow they actually get rid of that bypass late though. The whole point of the circle is traffic calming for that area. If they put the bypass in, they might as well just go with a nice boomed traffic light and bury all the power lines.

[ncwebguy]

I think the first roundabout should be in the Oberlin/Pullen area, not here. With the limited number of "through" east-west connections from downtown to the NC State area and points west, traffic would be calmer if there were more ways of getting around. An extende Morgan could be calmed too, since as it is now, traffic goes unimpeded from the Ashe light to St. Mary's.

Was this even in the original propsal for the Hillsborough Street Roundabouts? And yes, bypass lanes won't do a thing for traffic calming or making that area any more attractive. Maybe the developer who bought the land south of Hillsborough wants an indirect handout from the city for this project to improve the area?

Has the engineers studied a non-roundabout solution?

I don't know if I'll be able to make the meeting, but will try.

[JeffC]

I think the first roundabout should be in the Oberlin/Pullen area, not here. With the limited number of "through" east-west connections from downtown to the NC State area and points west, traffic would be calmer if there were more ways of getting around. An extende Morgan could be calmed too, since as it is now, traffic goes unimpeded from the Ashe light to St. Mary's.

FYI, the roundabout at Pullen/Oberlin (actually two roundabouts, with the Oberlin/Pullen road zig zag eliminated by routing Oberlin behind the block where Red Hot and Blue is about to open) is a done deal, with construction to start in May, 2008. Morgan/Hillsborough is the next phase in the project. HERE is the N&O article from October if you missed it...