Hillsborough & Morgan St

[ChiefJoJo]

I think the first roundabout should be in the Oberlin/Pullen area, not here. With the limited number of "through" east-west connections from downtown to the NC State area and points west, traffic would be calmer if there were more ways of getting around. An extende Morgan could be calmed too, since as it is now, traffic goes unimpeded from the Ashe light to St. Mary's.

Was this even in the original propsal for the Hillsborough Street Roundabouts? And yes, bypass lanes won't do a thing for traffic calming or making that area any more attractive. Maybe the developer who bought the land south of Hillsborough wants an indirect handout from the city for this project to improve the area?

Has the engineers studied a non-roundabout solution?

I don't know if I'll be able to make the meeting, but will try.

Morgan/Hillsborough is the next phase in the project.

IIRC the Morgan/Hillsborough project was ever part of the original Hillsborough Street (by NCSU) feasibility study, and now project. I believe this came about as the city planned to implement a two-way conversion of Morgan St from here to downtown. At the last public meeting, I recall that the inspiration for the roundabout was supposedly the notion of expanding the Livable Streets Plan westward to this area, but I think the designers lost their way in translation.

I would be OK with a traffic signal or roundabout with no bypass lane, and hopefully with accomodations for bicycles as well ( I see so many bikes along H St these days). There is also a very large oak tree on the corner that the roundabout would take out. Certainly a standard signalized intersection would allow this to remain standing--big plus if they can do both. I always thought that oak was a nice entryway to the downtown of the "City of Oaks."

[Jones_]

A signalzed intersection would also free up some road way to be sold to private interests such as teh buyer of teh Bolton Building. THen there would be enough room to put a nice corner building there and have a nice row of storefronts.

[orulz]

I was at the meeting yesterday. Meeker and Crowder were there, along with 40 or so nearby residents, property owners, business owners, and just generally concerned citizens. Unfortunately had to leave at 7:30 so I didn't stay until the end, but before it was over there were a couple things I got out of it.

1. Nobody was completely happy with any of the alternatives.

2. There was a lot of public support for not pushing forward with the best of the available options, but instead expanding the scope of this from a project for an intersection to a plan for the entire neighborhood, in an attempt to increase connectivity to alleviate the choke point that this intersection presents. In particular, Crowder was very vocal in support of this method of moving forward.

3. The extension of Morgan on its east-west axis to Ashe, and on its north-south axis to Western, is currently under study by the city- with the results due sometime early next year.

4. Of the presented alternatives (bypass lane roundabout, 2-lane roundabout, 1-lane roundabout, and signalized intersection) nobody liked the bypass lane or the 2-lane roundabout options; about 2/3 seemed more interested in the 1-lane roundabout, and 1/3 in the signalized intersection.

I don't think you need a crystal ball to see how this will play out... I predict the two-laning of Morgan and improvements at this intersection will be postponed, until the results of the feasibility study for #3 are known, and assuming a positive result, one or both of the Morgan extensions (to Ashe and/or to Western) will be incorporated in the project.

[ncwebguy]

I meant to say the "Pullen" roundabout should be the first as you approach the NC State area westward from downtown, not first to be constructed. I knew what I was thinking, but re-reading my post, I do sound like I haven't been paying attention for the last year. I am glad that burying utilities will happen there.. does anyone have a ballpark number for how much would it cost to extend the burying to the Hillsborough/Morgan intersection?

But if they could come up with a design for Hillsborough/Morgan that 1) saves the big oak tree 2) looks good and not "forced", especially with the nearby Ashe intersection and 3) and works well with whatever is going to replace the Bolton site.

I think it was good for the city to explore a two-way Morgan, and it is better to "step back" from focusing on just this intersection until the Morgan extension studies are finished. Just as the Oberlin roundabout is important to Hillsborough, so will the Morgan area around Goodnights affect the Hillsborough/Morgan intersection.

[waltergropius]

Go HERE for images of all of PBS+J's alternative schemes for this intersection.

I can't believe how bullheaded and narrow-sighted this traffic engineering firm is. Meeting after meeting, they just don't get it. I have attended several of these meetings only to keep seeing the same things over and over. The city should fire these guys, IMO.

[Jones_]

equally surprising but happily so is that from Orulz's comments, many people who do not post here even (I know I feel like sometimes UP folks are the only ones paying attention) are really seeing clearly on this....I had forgotten about the Morgan West extension and Morgan South extension (Morgan N-S used to be called Harrision St I think). What a nice grid of connected streets we could have here.

[DPK]

I had forgotten about the Morgan West extension and Morgan South extension (Morgan N-S used to be called Harrision St I think). What a nice grid of connected streets we could have here.

I had no idea about it. I'm digging the idea as if they were to extend the streets, it would take traffic off of Hillsborough onto Western. Also there wouldn't be so many cars cutting down Ashe and Pullen to get between Western and Hillsborough.

[RaleighRob]

The thing is, if they really wanna try to divert thru-traffic off of Hillsborough, finding new connections to Western is only half of it. There is a major lack of roads that connect Western with Wade, the other major multilane east-west road. Coming into town from the West, once you pass Faircloth/Gorman, there are no other roads that connect those two until you're downtown and hit Capital/Dawson/McDowell. Thus, it becomes harder to avoid Hillsborough if you want to do any north/south movement. But maybe I'm getting off the topic here.

Personally, after seeing all these designs for the roundabout I'm about to just say forget it...just give us a lighted intersection and time it to the Ashe Ave intersection so that traffic flow is less-interrupted. Give it wide, well-marked crosswalks and walking signals and I'll be satisfied for the most part. (Sigh)

[orulz]

The thing is, if they really wanna try to divert thru-traffic off of Hillsborough, finding new connections to Western is only half of it. There is a major lack of roads that connect Western with Wade, the other major multilane east-west road. Coming into town from the West, once you pass Faircloth/Gorman, there are no other roads that connect those two until you're downtown and hit Capital/Dawson/McDowell. Thus, it becomes harder to avoid Hillsborough if you want to do any north/south movement. But maybe I'm getting off the topic here.

There actually are some options for going north-south between Western and Wade: Pullen-Oberlin is the big one, and it will work much better when the roundabout at Hillsborough is constructed. Dixie Trail-Dan Allen counts too in my book. Dan Allen has some pretty severe congestion at various times of the day, but Dixie Trail is never really very busy at all.

The major options for heading west out of downtown are:

• Wade. I don't view this as a significant or important route for diverting traffic from Hillsborough; there is limited potential to increase capacity without huge impacts and expense.
  
• Peace/Clark. The fact that Clark is discontinuous between Dixie Trail and Brooks diminishes its value significantly, but then again I don't think I'd be in favor of tearing the neighborhood apart to build a straight-through connection.
  
• Hillsborough. We already know that we don't want to put more traffic on Hillsborough.
  
• Western. This is a suburban-style arterial with some expressway characteristics. I have no problem with projects to increase capacity here. There are still a number of 4-lane segments left on Western; you could turn it into a 6-lane road clear to the Beltline and probably not hear a peep from any neighborhood anywhere. In addition, I believe NCDOT has a long-term plan for an interchange at Avent Ferry, which will mitigate the biggest bottleneck on the road.
  
• And, lest we should forget, I-40. This is one that we seem to have forgotten in our discussion of alternate routes west of Downtown. But there are two projects in the pipe that will make this much more attractive: widening 40 itself between Wade and 440, and widening Lake Wheeler Road to provide a better route to get to 40 in the first place.
  

But Western remains the most important for diverting traffic from Hillsborough, due to proximity and the potential for connections between the corridors at Morgan and Ashe.

[ChiefJoJo]

• Western. This is a suburban-style arterial with some expressway characteristics. I have no problem with projects to increase capacity here. There are still a number of 4-lane segments left on Western; you could turn it into a 6-lane road clear to the Beltline and probably not hear a peep from any neighborhood anywhere. In addition, I believe NCDOT has a long-term plan for an interchange at Avent Ferry, which will mitigate the biggest bottleneck on the road.
  
• And, lest we should forget, I-40. This is one that we seem to have forgotten in our discussion of alternate routes west of Downtown. But there are two projects in the pipe that will make this much more attractive: widening 40 itself between Wade and 440, and widening Lake Wheeler Road to provide a better route to get to 40 in the first place.
  

But Western remains the most important for diverting traffic from Hillsborough, due to proximity and the potential for connections between the corridors at Morgan and Ashe.

I agree. Western Blvd is option #1, since it's only about 3/4 mile south of Hillsborough in most places, and close enough to have an influence in diversion of local traffic IMO (esp on the NCSU portion of Hillsborough--post roundabouts). Western approaching DTR at 4 lanes functions quite well with no signals from Avent Ferry to Hunt Dr, but you *might* be able to squeeze in 2 more lanes. You rightly point out I-40 and Lake Wheeler as well. I-40 should be widened in Cary by 2010-11 or so and Lake Wheeler might be done whenever the state/city/etc figure out Dix's future (which could be quite a while off). Even Lake Wheeler isn't a great choice because it is so disconnected from the western DT grid...

People have brought up connecting Morgan St west to Ashe Ave, but I can't imagine that's a good long term solution, other than slightly improving connectivity and viability of various parcel development near Goodnights/Bolton. Ashe Ave already had traffic calming project done last year where the city added speed humps, bulb outs, a stop sign, and dropped the speed limit from 35 to 25mph... so it's not a good candidate for additional cut-through traffic. Maybe a Morgan N-S extension to Western/Dix (in one of the Dix Plans?) would help Ashe Ave, but anything crossing the NCRR is going to require a new bridge, which means a $multi-M project.

I think what we are heading towards in the short term is that W. Raleigh residents are going to have to accept that there will be more diversion to Western Blvd & maybe Wade Ave as a result of the de-emphasis of Hillsborough as a primary E-W arterial. I would recommend introducing either (1) a regular circulator bus along Hillsborough St to and from DTR or (2) increasing frequency of existing CAT services (<headways, real-time info, etc) along the street as a short-term countermeasure. The STAC has already identified that corridor and I've often felt regular service could capture at least some additional riders.

Longer term (5+ years) there aren't any more roads to feasibly widen in W. Raleigh, and ultimately, I see TTA Rail (BRT?) serving the medium-to-long haul regional travel and a streetcar or other bus cirulator serving intracity travel.

... back on topic a bit, I wonder how all of this is going to affect FWM? If they already purchased the land ($7M+), I'm sure they don't want to wait too long before proceeding with a project, but not knowing the physical layout of the intersection leaves them a bit in limbo.

[ncwebguy]

An elongated oval, possibly signaled, could tie Hillsborough, Morgan, Ashe and East Park to the same "interchange". The would have to take a couple of parking spaces in the lot west of East Park and the "center" would be a westward extension of the Morgan/Hillsborough "triangle" already in place.

A bridge over the train tracks would be expensive, but it would make getting from Hillsborough and Morgan to Western easier to bypass the roundabouts and make two way Morgan an attractive alternative to Hillsborough. There might be some regulation about distance from Central Prison, so it could only be a two lane street until Central Prison closes. But if/when the prison closes, Govenor Morehead School moves and something happens with the Dix campus, the new bridge area could be a district itself.

[orulz]

The thing with extending Morgan to Ashe is that it would REMOVE traffic (probably quite a LOT of traffic) from the segment between the RR tracks and Hillsborough. The part of Ashe that would see increased traffic would be south of the RR tracks, between Governor's School and Pullen Park.

A signal would probably need to be installed on Western at Ashe/Bilyeu; the signal at Hunt/Central Prison would be moved to the new Morgan-Blair connector, and would be red more often, so six-laning Western, perhaps as far as Boylan, might be needed.

The city's comprehensive plan calls for some reconfiguration in the southwest corner of downtown that will tie Lake Wheeler into the grid much better. First, the South Saunders / Glenwood connector (which is still on the plan, though it has been downgraded from a "thoroughfare" to a "collector"). Second, there are some changes planned at the Lake Wheeler/South Saunders and South Saunders/South Street intersections, though I've seen two variations of the plan. One would extend Lake Wheeler on a new alignment, and tie it into West Street. The other would tie it directly into South Street using the South Saunders alignment. Both would eliminate part or all of the apartment complex at South Street & South Saunders Street.

[Jones_]

Both would eliminate part or all of the apartment complex at South Street & South Saunders Street.

Do you mean Heritage Park projects or Gateway Park the new place?

[orulz]

Wasn't sure the name, but it's not new so it's probably heritage park. Maybe "elimnate" wasn't the right word, though, perhaps "impact" is better.

[orulz]

The feasibility study for the Morgan-Western-Centennial and Morgan-Ashe connectors is now up on the city's website. They consider some pretty interesting alternatives. A couple points of interest:

• The old landfill on the Dix campus is considered too unstable to support a major connecting road. If any segment of the road crosses the landfill, all the trash beneath the road must be excavated and replaced with fill dirt. This precludes any significant realignment of Hunt Drive.
  
• The study recommends a bridge over, rather than a tunnel under, the railroad tracks.
  
• The westward extension of Morgan to Ashe would complicate things by forcing a 4-way intersection (more signal cycles) at the Morgan-Western and Morgan-Ashe connectors. Based on capacity analysis, more dedicated turn lanes would probably be needed, which would mean a wider Morgan street, which might affect existing development and necessitate a wider bridge over the tracks. The study recommends against pursuing the Morgan-Ashe connector for that reason, even while conceding elsewhere that it is "long needed." That's disappointing.
  
• The Morgan-Western-Centennial connection will be expensive, but putting a dollar amount to it is beyond the scope of a feasibility study.
  

[DPK]

Holy crap that study is thought out; well done Kimley-Horn and the Land Design group. I have some opinions, but I've just barely scratched the surface reading this so I'll hold off. Great catch orulz!

[Jones_]

I had some Kimley Horn guys at my "Big Idea" table at Tir Na Nog. Wonder if they had any hand in this process.....

I guess for all the options going through Dix, the City assumes that it will be available to build roads through at some point...high volume ones at that (4 lanes)

[orulz]

The study says that regardless of the configuration north of Western, south of western a two-lane road will be more than sufficient to handle the traffic, even in the design year of 2035.

I take issue with the fact that the study is written entirely from a traffic engineering standpoint. No consideration is given to how more or less connectivity can affect development patterns in the area, or to walkability, or to how rising gas prices will affect future traffic patterns. In my opinion, entirely too much consideration is given to the estimated "LOS" of one particular movement in 2035.

I'd like to see both connections built. First build the connection from Morgan to Ashe, since that will be less expensive, and won't require a 600 foot long multi-million dollar bridge. (For comparison, the Boylan Avenue bridge is approximately 250 feet long.) That will provide enough relief on the Hillsborough/Morgan intersection in order to convert the rest of Morgan to two-way traffic.. Along with this, build the northern approach for the bridge over the RR tracks. Put the connection from Morgan to Western as a high priority item on the TIP and build it in 5 or 10 years when funding becomes available.

[Jones_]

Do general planners not have an overseer status to road planners at least at the city level? At least I would hope there is collaboration but I do not even sense much of that. A friend of mine owns a house on Ashe and I think he is very much in favor of the Morgan-Ashe connection, so it should not be a nimby issue. The planners here seem really stuck on the negatives they seem to foresee and not willing to wrench the ultimate positive settup out of the whole deal...a well connected street grid that supports a thriving city (and all its trappings). Ashe already has good traffic calming measures which reduce its use as a high-speed cut through...but it does need to be a cut through, or call it a connector to sound better...regardless, all other streets are that much more impacted by not having the Morgan-Ashe connector, or redevelopment and renewal of this part of the city is stifled by it not being there...either way its a loss....

[ChiefJoJo]

Looks like the city council wants the single-lane roundabout option. They passed a resolution requesting that the city take over maintenance of Hillsborough and Morgan St inthat area, so they wold have jurisdiction. Looks like the state would not grant the single-lane roundabout, so the city has to take over total control to make it happen. (Reading between the lines here.) This is a common problem around the state as cities are redeveloping and looking to calm traffic and provide multimodal options in an urban setting. The state has historically not had to deal with this scenario very often.

[ChiefJoJo]

The city is holding a meeting on this project tomorrow night at 6pm. Looks like the single lane roundabout is now the preferred option.

[orulz]

I went to the meeting and looked at the boards. Also talked a bit with the consultants, but I had to leave just as the meeting was getting underway.

Sure enough, the plan calls for a one-lane roundabout.

The basic way they plan to do this and still have the intersection work satisfactorily is to drop one westbound lane of Hillsborough at St Mary's Street. The rightmost westbound lane of Hillsborough will be turned into a right-turn-only lane there, effectively using St. Mary's Street to divert some traffic from Hillsborough. Hillsborough will be re-striped west of St. Mary's, removing one westbound lane, and adding some more on-street parking spaces. Hopefully at some point in the future the city will be able to do a streetscape project here. With one fewer traffic lane to worry about, there should be space to widen the sidewalks.

Left turns from Ashe to Hillsborough will be prohibited, as in the previous alternatives.

This is supposed to be completed by October 2009. I'm not really sure when the Pullen-Oberlin roundabout will be built, but when it's done somebody seriously needs to connecting the dots by rebuilding the street between Oberlin and Morgan to a two-lane section as well.

[orulz]

BTW. FMW owns 8 parcels in the neighborhood, totaling 4.89 acres. They started acquiring property in mid-2007. Their most recent acquisition was February 2008. I plotted the land that they own on google maps for your reference. Much of this land is empty, but only one of the houses was torn down while they owned it (I think was boarded up, condemned, and falling apart anyway.)

[Jones_]

Who is FMW and why are they acquiring so much land?

I too was thinking about connecting dots^^, but I was thinking about a landscaped median heading east from this roundabout to St Mary's, ala Clark Ave and Glenwood Ave.

[orulz]

FMW is a real estate company from Charlotte. From their website, they seem to specialize in assembling parcels rather than actually building developments themselves. Their MO seems to be to assemble the land, and then either partner with another developer to build something, or else sell their interest to another developer who is interested in building.

I would guess that the reason we haven't heard of anything other than acquisitions so far is that they're not done assembling land yet. Not sure exactly which parcels are in their crosshiars next, but they probably want Jackpot, as well as the houses at 105 Park and 109 Ashe. They might also be looking at Catering Works and Pullen Park Lofts to the south, or Jade Garden's parking lot to the north.

Hopefully they won't mess with the buildings that contain Royal Food Mart, Irregardless, or Charlie Goodnight's. I don't really care about the Cycle Logic/Jade Garden buildings, but the businesses they hold are great, so I'd hate to see them go too.

Pretty much anything else is fair game in my book.