Why is East Grand Rapids different from Grand Rapids?

[joeDowntown]

The big EGR conspiracy. EGR is like the man. Stickin' it to the little folks. I always knew it was real but you just confirmed it.

GR Urbanist: Drop the conspiracy theory and put away your water bong. I think you've had your quota for the day.

EGR is EGR because they "leech" off of all the cities around them that provide the jobs they commute to and the Big Box stores that they shop in. We get dirty so EGR can be the shining city by the lake, Free of all the filth.

[wingbert]

The biggest difference that I see, and one that I am constantly dealing with, is the schools. The schools are percieved to be far superior in EGR and as a result, the property is at a premium, because the city is pretty much built out. They just can't build another school and add 225 houses like in Forest Hills. This drives property values and taxes.

[terra firma]

. EGR is EGR because We get dirty so EGR can be the shining city by the lake, Free of all the filth.

[twoshort]

Why sling all that crap at EGR about GR having to get dirty to help GR stay clean ? Did i miss a meeting in the past where it was decided to do all this or did it happen naturally over many years ?

Yep, thought so....

[GRDadof3]

Let's try not to carry this discussion to a personal level. Even though I think Urbanist is wrong in his logic, he didn't attack anyone in particular (just EGR in general).

[GR Jackson]

Why did EGR seperate from GR in the first place?

[AlexPKeaton]

Why did EGR seperate from GR in the first place?

[FilmMaker]

Allow me to bring a slightly different perspective to this conversation: Instead of asking why adjacent areas are so different (and thus creating animosities between neighborhoods), perhaps we should be discussing how a broad variety and diversity of architecture, neighborhoods and lifestyle options brings value to the entire metro area?

I guess my point is this: every metro area the size of GR has areas like EGR, downtown, Kentwood, Jenison, Rockford, etc. It is simply unavoidable due to demographics. What matters is what we do with this overall demographic and environmental diversity. Do we want it to be a devise issue? or do we want to leverage it for the common good?

Sure, like everyone else I would love to help find the silver bullet solution to whatever it is that seems to ail GR Public Schools. But I also know that I value the diversity that happens across the broader picture of the metro area as a whole. Yes, it would be nice if the entire area was less auto-centric (one of my biggest pet peeves), but I also know that we are blessed with a large number of enviable assets across the metro area - that are available and, for the most part, accessible to everyone in the metro area. Instead of painting EGR as elitist, what if we used some of its positive traits to encourage lifestyle improvements in other areas of the metro - and maybe even encouraged more interaction between all neighborhoods of different types?

A few examples from personal experience: We live in Rockford and regularly see many people in downtown Rockford and along the White Pine Trail wearing high school t-shirts from other areas of the metro. We love that others come to enjoy the highlights of our village. We ourselves spend a lot of time in EGR enjoying Reeds Lake and always feel welcome there. Millennium Park is merely the start of what will ideally become one of the largest semi-contiguous recreational areas in the Midwest - and it is enjoyed by a broad diversity of people who travel there from many different areas of the metro.

And, of course, there is the mother of all examples where this metro shows its friendly tolerance (dare I say pride in?) its diversity: the Festival of the Arts each June in downtown GR... where all it takes is a bunch of food booths and home-grown entertainment to bring us all into a collective (and festive) snapshot of the greater community. Furthermore, I'm always encouraged by the ethnic diversity found at all of the many ethnically specific festivals held downtown. Truth is, we party pretty well as a collective metro crowd... and that certainly is a far more worthwhile topic of conversation than "why is EGR so much better than GR?"

Personally, I'd be pretty disappointed if the entire metro all looked the same (find me a metro the size of GR that does). And I believe that comparing neighborhoods is a pretty unproductive exercise... much better that we spend out energies encouraging and celebrating the diversity of our greater metro population and environment - and looking for ways to share each smaller area's successes among the broader metro.

[dragt]

I hear you. I live in GR. I have a child who will be school age in a few years, and not a day goes by that I don't think about the school issue.

I believe in public education. I don't want to move out of my house. But is it a rational decision to send my child to GRPS? Part of me thinks the problem at GRPS are a reflection of society. Perhaps if I choose to keep my child in GRPS I will be helping to reverse a trend. But is rolling the dice with my child's education worth it? Parochial schools are not an option. I've been thinking about charter schools.

I really have no idea what I'm going to do.

[GR_Urbanist]

Please don't take GR_Urbanist's asinine comments as the feelings of the board as a whole.

[GRDadof3]

There is nothing asinine about them. And as far as I can tell no one has said it wasn't true.

EGR's neighbors are what provides that city with the majority of their jobs and shopping centers.

You know the strip malls, big box retailers, factories, office parks that would never get zoned one inch inside their borders.

I didnt say that their was anything wrong with them not having them, but yes EGR's neighbors have the ugly places in such large numbers that EGR can afford not to. Luck of the draw? Who knows! But thats the way it is.

[Weallneedhistory]

I'm a high school teacher in Forest Hills (but live in GR). I spend everyday in that district. I also spent a year interning in inner-city KPS schools (Kalamazoo) a few years ago. I've seen both sides of these societies from the inside. Why is EGR different from GR? It has nothing to do with the teachers at the schools - they are good teachers. I think the difference is rather simple - its the way you're raised. It's your family and friends.

Look, Forest Hills and EGR both have high test scores, solid reputations, picture-like scenery, etc. But they also have immense community involvement and pride behind those scores, sports teams, and other items. And this is instilled in the students at a very young age. GRPS students don't share the same pride. Not when everyone keeps ripping the so-called "crappy" schools, both in the papers, on TV, and in internet forums. Realize that GRPS students often become GR residents, where as FHPS and EGR students often become FHPS and EGR residents.

On the flip-side, when I was in the innercity, I had numerous students whose parents were in gangs or in prison, or dead from gangs. 8th graders who knew how to shut the front door on the cops. That was their life - they saw it at home and they saw it at school. Why would they change and be different from their friends and family? "Our schools are low performing? Who cares - I'm not going to college." And if they wanted to change, how are they to change unless they move? And most can't afford rent, much less move. Sure, some make it out of this cycle, but not nearly as much as we would desire. And so the divison between the two cities or societies continues.

Why is EGR different from GR? It's all in how you were raised, and what society you found yourself in. Both cities have residents that have different perspectives and priorities on life. It's whether or not you are "expected" to succeed or not, and I think we're kidding ourselves if we think its anything else.

[GR_Urbanist]

Seriously, what are you talking about? I mean, specifically. I don't remember any big box retailers or factories being proposed for EGR. Where would they even go? It's pretty built out.

And what strip mall was built in Grand Rapids because EGR wouldn't allow it? I's confused.

[dtown]

I'm a high school teacher in Forest Hills (but live in GR). I spend everyday in that district. I also spent a year interning in inner-city KPS schools (Kalamazoo) a few years ago. I've seen both sides of these societies from the inside. Why is EGR different from GR? It has nothing to do with the teachers at the schools - they are good teachers. I think the difference is rather simple - its the way you're raised. It's your family and friends.

Look, Forest Hills and EGR both have high test scores, solid reputations, picture-like scenery, etc. But they also have immense community involvement and pride behind those scores, sports teams, and other items. And this is instilled in the students at a very young age. GRPS students don't share the same pride. Not when everyone keeps ripping the so-called "crappy" schools, both in the papers, on TV, and in internet forums. Realize that GRPS students often become GR residents, where as FHPS and EGR students often become FHPS and EGR residents.

On the flip-side, when I was in the innercity, I had numerous students whose parents were in gangs or in prison, or dead from gangs. 8th graders who knew how to shut the front door on the cops. That was their life - they saw it at home and they saw it at school. Why would they change and be different from their friends and family? "Our schools are low performing? Who cares - I'm not going to college." And if they wanted to change, how are they to change unless they move? And most can't afford rent, much less move. Sure, some make it out of this cycle, but not nearly as much as we would desire. And so the divison between the two cities or societies continues.

Why is EGR different from GR? It's all in how you were raised, and what society you found yourself in. Both cities have residents that have different perspectives and priorities on life. It's whether or not you are "expected" to succeed or not, and I think we're kidding ourselves if we think its anything else.

[GRDadof3]

YES, it is a very rational, very intentional decision to send your children to GRPS. And I don't think you can "trust" any system to educate them, as if it takes no effort by parents in suburbia or EGR. Will you alone reverse a trend? No, but if you and I and others decide not to be bullied our culture then maybe...

Frankly, I don't "trust" a mostly upper middle class white school system to help teach my children about a world that looks very different and get's by on far less than they do. Will I have to be involved in my children's education? You bet! Will I have warm fuzzies inside and know beyond a doubt that my kids are safe and getting smart? Nope, but as Mike said, there exists no truly safe place and there is far more to life than being safe. What if you could make a difference? What if you could prove to your friends and aquantainces that deciding to stay in the city can work for families? What if others (LIKE ME) are deciding to do it to? Might things change? I do know this, Gandhi was perhaps at his absolute wisest when he said:

"You must be the change you want to see in the world."

Stop complaining. Stop running. Stop blindly following the conventional wisdom. Be the change.

There are more than a few "good" GRPS elementary schools. Many could be great if a few families decided to stay and be as involved as they will be out in random burbTown.

Also, GRPS has an amazing K-12 Montessori program that you will not find in any other system around here that I know of. It is now centralized and growing in enrollement each year.

Sorry if this sounds aggressive, I know staying is not for everyone. Really, I do. But there must be some families out there willing to stay and be the change...

[dragt]

I think what GRPS needs is some good exposure. We in the metro area only hear about the negative, yet I'm sure there are a lot of positives going on in GRPS. But no one is marketing the school system to people who have either left the system or who have never been in the system. Andy, maybe a new feature of Rapid Growth could be video stories about individual successes in the school district: Active parent groups, successful teachers, innovative classroom ideas, new school buildings built with sustainable design principles, etc.. Grand Rapids Community Foundation does a lot of work with the school system so they might also be a good place to go. RapidGrowth does a good job of highlighting neighborhood efforts, but little press is given to the school system.

Just a thought.

[Rhino6885]

... and it's a good thought... if they won't do it, I will start my own GRPS vlog. My oldest starts school in the fall and we are moving into GR in order to send our kids to GRPS!! That's got to be a first, eh? We want our kids to grow up with an appreciation of the diverse urban fabric of the city, the beauty and the mess...

[ModSquad]

But I can tell you this, EGR does not have metal detectors installed in their schools, they have high graduation rates, they have a safe learning environment (ie-no SWAT teams coming to lock-downs). It is obvious to me that this is not going to change, despite all of the rhetoric and smoke that gets blown up our asses about it.

[Landscape1]

Another point here is that it is not just the GR Public Schools that have been impacted by people leaving for the suburbs (or charter schools). The GR Christian Schools and Catholic schools have lost a number of students as well. As they lose students the one Christian School in Forest Hills has expanded and is still reaching maximum capacity.

I know this topic is regarding GR v. EGR and why there are visible changes at some borders but I think these things are all related.

[PBJ]

And with what Joe said, not everyone wants to have their kids attend and/or can't afford Christian or Catholic school. What if a family is Jewish, or Muslim (which there are many moving to the metro area)? Are there options for those families in the city?

[Mark Miller]

C'mon, lets be factual here. No GRPS school has a metal detector in it and most likely never will. Let's also be clear on the incident at Central High School. A few students saw something in another student's pocket that looked like it could be a gun, so they did what they are supposed to do, they told someone about it. The school system acted exactly as it should for the safety of the students it locked the school down. The GR Police attempted to invade the school with a SWAT team but were over ridden by the head of GRPS security. Before the stupid SWAT team was on the site, the student was in the office and it turned out to be the face plate from his stereo.

GR Town Planner, I know I will never ever change your mind about GRPS, but do not unfairly and wrongly portray the facts as it relates to my school system that I love.

[grmetro]

If we're going to discuss this, can we please move the conversation to the proper thread? Thanks.

Joe

[michaelskis]

Wow, this thread as manifested into quite a discussion. I have nothing bad to say about East Grand Rapids. It is a nice little community. How ever truly love Grand Rapids and specifically, the Heritage Hill, Cherry Hill, and East Town Neighborhoods.

A very wise person once said that if you want to be skinny, study what skinny people do, if you want to be wealthy, study what wealthy people do, if you want to be successful in any area, find a person that has already achieved that status and find out how they did it.

People, specifically wealthy families, are more attracted to EGR than they are GR. Statistics prove it. I think that Grand Rapids has such an amazing foundation to achieve far more success than EGR.

I was talking with a Teacher friend of mine about this issue, and she says that from the information that she hears is the problem is partly the schools lack of commitment and a

[joeDowntown]

I think this sums it up for me perfectly. I *AM* an urban dweller. I spend most of my time downtown, have turned my 3 and 6 year old into downtown lovers, love old houses. Love history. I love everything about the city. But when it comes to my children, I will not be a pioneer. I want my kids to go to a place where other parents have the same goals in mind, etc.

For all the bashing that goes on about the suburbs, if you have kids, it becomes a *MUCH* bigger issue than "do I want to deal with the minimal irritations of city living". My children are the most important thing to me and I would go to incredible measures to protect them. Opting out of sending my kids to GRPS is not so hard. The school system makes it easy.

As far as diversity, this is also very important to me as I don't want my kids growing up in the bubble I did. There are options out there. I send my kids to a Spanish immersion program and it is one of the most diverse schools I have ever seen.

I wish I could live in the city limits, but I am not a gambler when it comes to my kids.

Joe

Am I willing to plunge my children into the GRPS hoping that they make the change that I seek. Is that my job? Is that my kid's job? Am I willing to roll the dice to find out?

[GRDadof3]

Just a point of clarification, Montessori programs are without structure. That's the principle of a Montessori school. Kids are given tremendous amounts of freedom to discover their own abilities and strengths, and work at their own pace. I think it's a bunch of bunk personally. Kids need structure or they'll constantly drive off into the ditch. Some parents like that freedom for their kids, so it's not for everyone. The more structured you are, the less you'll like a Montessori school. Artists and creatives generally love Montessori programs. Accountants, manager and engineers generally do not. IMHO of course.

As far as vouchers go, we already have school of choice. If you live in Grand Rapids, you can apply for your child to attend a school in EGR or Forest Hills. It is on a limited basis due to space availability.

BTW: Like Joe said, if you are in the FH or EGR and want your children to learn in a diverse environment, Ada Vista Elementary is a great Spanish Immersion school and growing by leaps and bounds, and it draws a lot of different ethnicities because of its diversity. And your children learn both English and Spanish simultaneously, which they say also helps their little brains with cognitive learning (math especially) as well. A diverse highly disciplined learning environment. It can work.