Why is East Grand Rapids different from Grand Rapids?

[Sammie1]

I hear you. I live in GR. I have a child who will be school age in a few years, and not a day goes by that I don't think about the school issue.

I believe in public education. I don't want to move out of my house. But is it a rational decision to send my child to GRPS? Part of me thinks the problem at GRPS are a reflection of society. Perhaps if I choose to keep my child in GRPS I will be helping to reverse a trend. But is rolling the dice with my child's education worth it? Parochial schools are not an option. I've been thinking about charter schools.

I really have no idea what I'm going to do.

[Mark Miller]

While the parent participation is important, accountability of the system is more important. I do not see the accountability at GRPS.

In these at risk districts, you have a classroom that is teaching below the level of the best students (most likely a few) for the benefit of the academically challenged (most likely the majority) and thus all students are dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Just like our fabled global economy - sinking to the lowest common denominator. This is a systemic failure of the public school. I have seen it, and continue to see it, first hand. We continue to get the same homework over and over again. We get the same boring activities. We get the same tired lessons. And we see the stagnation of education. This happens because there are kids in the class who have trouble counting to ten, can not read and have the attention span of house flies. Should my kids be punished for this? Should the effort that I put into them be washed away by this?

For whatever reason this gap occurs, whether it is drug use, single parent households, parents with two jobs, or whatever other crutch that we want to use, makes very little difference to a parent that sees this happening to their child.

There needs to be accountability in the classroom. There needs to be hard results. The standards need to be raised. We need to force the academically challenged to either move to the level of the best or they need to get out of the way. We should not be dragging everything down, but rather raising everything up. If that means that a majority of the kids in a classroom need to be held back, then so be it.

[GRDadof3]

Boy, you know it's bad when even a bunch of "Grand Rapids enthusiasts" have no faith in the city's school system.

BTW GRTP, there are some excellent public schools in this area, with classroom teaching systems that would blow your mind. I know, I've seen them. Perhaps GRPS might take a look at what's going on at schools around them. Like an "exchange teacher" program.

I don't think this should be a separate topic. I agree with GRTP that the #1 item that will stunt growth in the city is the school system. The older generations are shrinking in the city (or retiring South), and the younger generations or those without kids are not enough to fill all the homes, restaurants and retail businesses in the city.

[AlexPKeaton]

There needs to be accountability in the classroom. There needs to be hard results. The standards need to be raised. We need to force the academically challenged to either move to the level of the best or they need to get out of the way. We should not be dragging everything down, but rather raising everything up. If that means that a majority of the kids in a classroom need to be held back, then so be it.

[GRDadof3]

Here ya go Andy (dragt). Step 1, contact this person:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ss....xml&coll=6

(or apply for this job ($160,000))

[ModSquad]

My point is that for the 14 years that I have lived in the city of Grand Rapids, I have heard the exact same thing regarding the schools. We have gone through four superintendents, we have passed a $30 million dollar bond, we have torn down the old "inferior" schools and built state of the art schools. We have thrown lots of money at the problem. Has the problem gone away? Are the schools better than they were? Are they able to consistently produce people who can compete for jobs? Are they able to produce people who can consistently read and write? or do rudimentary math? I know that a percentage of the kids that come out of these schools are prepared to succeed, but not enough.

What are the facts, Dave? 14 years, $30 million dollars and still questionable results.

The realist in me says no. The public schools (and not just GRPS) are representative of a systemic failure. The system needs to be radically overhauled.

[joeDowntown]

I have a question that Dave (or others) may be able to answer. Has there ever been talk of splitting the district up to make each High School its own district? It seems like each district, with it's own unique strengths and weaknesses might be able to form its own community and build upon those strengths individually.

I'm sure there are logistical problems (and additional costs), and this may be short-sighted, but I think people take more pride in their immediate community and if each district could pull itself up without the weight of the others pulling it back down, you might see many of the areas flourish (maybe even all of them).

Joe

[twoshort]

Here's a question. How many people are basing their opininion of GRPS on what the local news has to say? How many people base their opinion on information they got from someone with NO first hand experience?

We know better than to believe half the s--- they say about downtown development (i.e.: The Geha, 'my sources tell me,' etc.), we certainly can't take everything they say about GRPS as face value. I was just in a conversation this weekend with someone saying that all grand rapids public schools have armed guards and metal detectors (which is not true). This person not only believed that as fact, they spread their misinformation to people they hardly knew (me).

Just sayin...

[ModSquad]

Here's a question. How many people are basing their opininion of GRPS on what the local news has to say? How many people base their opinion on information they got from someone with NO first hand experience?

We know better than to believe half the s--- they say about downtown development (i.e.: The Geha, 'my sources tell me,' etc.), we certainly can't take everything they say about GRPS as face value. I was just in a conversation this weekend with someone saying that all grand rapids public schools have armed guards and metal detectors (which is not true). This person not only believed that as fact, they spread their misinformation to people they hardly knew (me).

Just sayin...

[suydam]

Although unpopular, I would love to see a system where the kids that aren't in school to learn are removed. Public education is not a right, and continuing to waste time and money on losers is hurting kids that would otherwise be winners.

[Rizzo]

Here is an example of what you are talking about. I am pasting this from my own blog on this very subject:

A Tale of Three Guns...

In the past three weeks there have been 3 supposed gun related incidents involving Grand Rapids Public Schools. Let's take a look at these three incidents.

First, a student at one of our high schools discovered that another student had a gun on him at school. This student told the principal immediately. The student in question was in route to the Kent ISD for vocational training classes. GRPS and GRPD met the bus at the ISD, the student was removed from the bus, and a gun was found. The student was arrested.

Second, a GRPS security officer from Madison Middle School was driving home from work. He noticed a young man with what looked to be a gun hanging out of his pocket. He called the police as he should...the young man was stopped...and it turned out to be a BB gun. The next day the headline in the Grand Rapids Press read, Gun Scare at Madison Middle School! The young man in question was not a GRPS student. This happened after hours. It happened in a neighborhood, not on school property. In fact the only involvement to GRPS was that the security guard worked at Madison Middle. Yet the headline led readers to believe a gun was at a GRPS school.

Third, a few students saw something in another student's pocket that looked like it could be a gun, so they did what they are supposed to do, they told someone about it. The school system acted exactly as it should for the safety of the students it locked the school down on code red. The GR Police attempted to invade the school with a SWAT team but were overridden by the head of GRPS security (thankfully). Before the SWAT team was on the site, the student was in the office and it turned out to be the face plate from his stereo. In the mean time, the media formed a circus on the front lawn of the school filming the SWAT team walking around the whole school property in full battle gear. It was quite a sight, and certainly made GRPS look like a very dangerous place.

In every case, everyone associated with GRPS; teachers, parents, students, security officers, and administrators did exactly what they were supposed to do. In every case no one was hurt or even in immediate danger. Yet the media portrayed GRPS in every case as a place where you are not safe.

[PRCH]

For the media to disregard the actual happenings is disturbing. Is there any credible watch dog on this local media? I believe some folks on UP have talked about the Press misreporting or misrepresenting the facts and actual quotes. Whether this is lazy reporting, lack of oversight, or even disregard it's overwhelming to think -- especially the market size of the Press (over some 11 counties, I believe.) They are entitled to some mistakes, but to place a crime or incident at another location is inexcusable.

[AlexPKeaton]

I disagree. Public education is a right. At least it should be.

[mejane]

If you get a chance, take a drive down Lake Street from Fulton to the Belt Line on a Saturday Morning, and you will know when you

[jas49503]

I'm a high school teacher in Forest Hills (but live in GR). I spend everyday in that district. I also spent a year interning in inner-city KPS schools (Kalamazoo) a few years ago. I've seen both sides of these societies from the inside. Why is EGR different from GR? It has nothing to do with the teachers at the schools - they are good teachers. I think the difference is rather simple - its the way you're raised. It's your family and friends.

[krylonics]

Thank you Jason. It has far more to do with whats happening at home than anything else.

[Veloise]

Here ya go Andy (dragt). Step 1, contact this person:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grpress/index.ss....xml&coll=6

(or apply for this job ($160,000))

[Mark Miller]

To bring this back to the original question, which is to get to the root of why these two cities differ. Note that someone posted that the differences are good and I would definately agree. The last thing we need is to make everything the same. But I believe that there are obviously some successful things happening in EGR that can be used as models. Is it a perfect community? Definately not, but it does have good things happening.

EGR and GR have many things in common:

Physically:

1. They both are true urban places.

2. They both have a coherent nieghborhood structure and an urban core.

3. They have excellent connectivity because of their mostly traditional grid patterns.

4. They both have multiple examples of nice tree-lined streets.

5. They have both recently or are currently experiencing economic development, although at different scales, while most of the rest of the state is not.

Emotionally:

1. Many residents in these two cities take great pride in their city -- although maybe a larger relative percentage in EGR.

2. Many residents enjoy walking...and having a destination to walk to.

We have discussed the differences, and while these two places also have a great deal of physical attributes in common, they obviously have many physical elements which are different, some of which favor Grand Rapids...

In Grand Rapids there is a larger concentration of great housing stock. It may not be has "cleaned up" and as well maintained as in EGR, but it is better.

In Grand Rapids there is far better retail and restaurants.

The urban context in GR is overall better.

Ultimately Grand Rapids, IMO has a better overall "sense of place" when only comparing the physical attributes. Sure EGR has a couple of nice lakes that help to make it a very nice place, but I would still have to say GR wins in the physical composition category.

So why is it so different? Again, it has more to do with schools than anything else.

Dave - I apologize for my erroneous facts. But the fact that it is a $150,000,000 bond only makes it 5 times as worse. For this money, which I voted for and supported, I am seeing very little return on my investment and I have a problem with that. I have heard the same things for as long as I have lived here, I have experienced them first hand and second hand and I can not understand why the whole institution is not scrapped and recast.

As far as my own single bad experience...I have had two families within my block with similar bad experiences, the only difference is that they moved. If there is that many in a single block, then there is a systemic problem.

These things are not what I heard on the news or read in the local fish wrap, but they are first (or second) hand experiences.

GRDad - yes the Montessori is supposed to be unstructured education. But we never got to the education part, because there was so little structure, discpline or control of the teachers that they could not even get the kids in the classroom. This was the first day. They had 3+ months to prepare for this and they did not. What does that say about the system?

AlexPKeaton and suydam - Education is a right. Education was a foundation of a once great nation. Education was once an equalizer between the classes. But like most of our rights, it is relative. And if it is abused (as it currently is) then it can and should be taken away.

[AlexPKeaton]

AlexPKeaton and suydam - Education is a right. Education was a foundation of a once great nation. Education was once an equalizer between the classes. But like most of our rights, it is relative. And if it is abused (as it currently is) then it can and should be taken away.

[Rizzo]

Public education is an ideal. It's something we value in this country. It is certainly not a right. (The word "right" is thrown around a lot without much thought to what it really means.)

[GR Jackson]

I was coming out of a store today and as I was pulling out of the parking lot I saw some people waiting for the bus. One lady reached into her pocket to get her cigarettes and when she realized that was her last one she dropped the box on the ground and then emptied her pockets of garbage. Within easy walking distance was a garbage can. If that was in East GR this person would have probably been arrested.

[BigPlayJ]

It's the schools, and the cost of housing, both of which are related. Despite the higher taxes in EGR, housing prices have increased dramatically because people perceive value in the school system. If you look at comparable housing, even in the areas that border EGR (Eastown, Aquinas, Marywood, Midtown) the homes are priced at tens of thousands less. They are well cared for, but that doesn't matter. The low prices attract first time home buyers and landlords looking for renters.

I'm constantly amazed at the cost of housing in EGR. Many higher income families will pay the extra amount because the school system is so good. As more and more people pay more and more for these homes, all but the most affluent get priced out of the market.

School of choice is an option, but it is not guaranteed. A friend of mine lives in Ottawa Hills. Last year, one of his kids was accepted into EGR schools and the other had to wait another year in GR public. What a hassle.

Until GR improves its schools, or at least the perception of its schools, the areas will always differ. You are going to see young married couples buying wonderful starter homes in GR, having kids, and when those kids reach school age, they will move out of GR unless they go to private school. Case in point: I live in the Aquinas / Marywood area. There are many families on my block. Not a single one sends their kids to GR public schools.

[suydam]

I'm constantly amazed at the cost of housing in EGR. Many higher income families will pay the extra amount because the school system is so good. As more and more people pay more and more for these homes, all but the most affluent get priced out of the market.

[joeDowntown]

But the taxes in EGR are much higher, and that can make a HUGE different in your overall payment per month. That is where EGR nails you.

EGR only seems incredibly expensive if you compare it to GR proper. I still maintain it should be compared to other affluent suburban school districts. If you compare it to Forest Hills for example, EGR seems pretty equivalently priced. Of the 157 homes listed on GRAR, 43 of them are under $200,000.

[twoshort]

But the taxes in EGR are much higher, and that can make a HUGE different in your overall payment per month. That is where EGR nails you.