Is Charlotte a development whore?

[supastar]

Charlotte has roughly 670,000 in 280 square miles while

Atlanta has roughly 485,000 in only 132 square miles so

while Charlotte looks bigger on paper, it has more than twice the land

area of Atlanta. Charlotte would need a population of about

1,000,000 to compare to Atlanta.

[elvigy]

That Spheres of Influence map posted by metro is fascinating. So basically, Charlotte will eventually be all of Mecklenburg county minus about, oh, 25% or so. Can it (Charlotte) spill over into adjoining counties? It seems to me that there are towns and cities that do (don't Raleigh and/or Durham sprawl across county lines?). If so, are there any sphere of influence agreements in place with the towns in Union, Cabarrus or Gaston counties?

I imagine the SC border is the physical limitation going south, since we can't annex SC land, but I'm just curious how far Charlotte can extend itself northeast, northwest, east and west.

[MZT]

Charlotte can legally grow into adjoining counties - however most of the Union County border is already taken by bedroom communities. Charlotte could perhaps grow between Harrisburg and Midland on it's far eastern side.

South Carolina is not possible without an act of the SC legislature. You think that's gonna happen? No way.

[pazzo83]

Charlotte can legally grow into adjoining counties - however most of the Union County border is already taken by bedroom communities. Charlotte could perhaps grow between Harrisburg and Midland on it's far eastern side.

South Carolina is not possible without an act of the SC legislature. You think that's gonna happen? No way.

[atlrvr]

Stallings has actually already annexed land in Mecklenburg Co. so their is local precedent. I don't forsee Charlotte expanding outside Meck, and I wish they would stop annexing completely....all the annexing does is delay the inevitable rise in taxes to support unsustainable sprawl.....sort of like putting an infectious band-aid on a wound.

[pazzo83]

Stallings has actually already annexed land in Mecklenburg Co. so their is local precedent. I don't forsee Charlotte expanding outside Meck, and I wish they would stop annexing completely....all the annexing does is delay the inevitable rise in taxes to support unsustainable sprawl.....sort of like putting an infectious band-aid on a wound.

[Raintree21]

We talked about this a few years back. While I wouldn't mind seeing Charlotte eventually spill over into adjacent counties, I believe it was said that Charlotte and adjacent cities/towns have an agreement that we won't annex over the county line.

[monsoon]

^Actually the only agreement is amongst the 7 municipalities within Mecklenburg which is the reason for the map that I posted above. There is no agreement with any of the surrounding towns outside Meckenburg that would prevent annexation across county lines. There has already been a disagreement along the Union county line where the towns located there tried to annex across the line and was started by a Union county town's attempt to annex land within Mecklenburg. Huntersville is preparing to annex all of the land in it's zone all the way to the Cabarrus line to keep Kannapolis from annexing what it sees as it's territory.

Because of this, I should have said when I posted that map was that these will be the eventual city borders, if none of the land is not annexed by towns outside of Mecklenburg.

[monsoon]

....... I wish they would stop annexing completely....all the annexing does is delay the inevitable rise in taxes to support unsustainable sprawl.....sort of like putting an infectious band-aid on a wound.

[atlrvr]

I didn't say that it does affect the occurance of sprawl, I said that it delays the inevitable rise in taxes that will be eventually needed to pay for the services to support the sprawl that they've already annexed. I'd assume all that stuff stay in unincorporated Meck, and the unincorporated Meck tax rate go up, rather than the urban core subsidize people who most likely don't want to be in the city anyway.

[Raintree21]

The city council approved a 6.25-percent increase in the monthly water and sewer bills and a 7 percent increase in stormwater rates last night. I guess here is your increase in taxes and fees in response to sprawl.

[monsoon]

I didn't say that it does affect the occurance of sprawl, I said that it delays the inevitable rise in taxes that will be eventually needed to pay for the services to support the sprawl that they've already annexed. I'd assume all that stuff stay in unincorporated Meck, and the unincorporated Meck tax rate go up, rather than the urban core subsidize people who most likely don't want to be in the city anyway.

[atlrvr]

No...it's revenue postive short term, which is my whole point. The roads were the responsibility of the state for maintenance, and the majority of subdivisions are new. So when their maintenance cycle comes up (9-15 years after their construction) they will now be the responsibility for the city to maintain. If you drive through these neighborhoods, you will see that a majority of them don't have the density to support the infrastructure maintenance with their property taxes.

Also, it is a joint police force between the city and county administered by the city (as is planning) which is why people who live in the county pay a higher tax to the county than people living in an incorporated place within Meck. However, the rest of the services you mentioned do become the responsibility of the city, and by taking a look at the city budget you will see how big of a share those items account for (well over 50% on the city's budget).

They will have to build new firestations and pay full time fire-fighters (the VFD can't serve incorporated Charlotte) , operating garbage truckins in low-density, cul-de-sac streets is very inefficient, as is all delivery of all services.

Again, annexing is just a short term fix, that results in long term negative cash flow to the city once required infrastructure is put in place and scheduled maintenance begins. The city core certainly does not benefit from the city-fringe over the long term. Why do you think the local tax rate continues to rise? It's not to support the mature in-town neighborhoods, and its not for arenas or arts which are supported by hotel and car rental taxes....its because the cost of sprawl has finally surpassed the short term bump in revenue.

Think of it in these terms....it's akin to you not being able to pay your mortgage on your house, so you take out a home equity loan to give you enough cash to make your payments, in theory you can keep doing this until your home maxes out in value (city runs out of land to annex) and then you're fudgeed. The only other option is to keep refinancing with worse terms (raise taxes).

[NCN8ive]

I disagree. In Mecklenburg, the vast majority of taxes paid are county taxes. All pay them regardless of where located. Getting moved into the city means you are now paying taxes to support a different police and fire department and you get garbage pickup and street lights. Beyond that it isn't much of a burden to Charlotte and is revenue positive to the city for the costs paid. That is why the city is so quick to annex in new development. It's the people living in the urban core that are benefiting from the large surburban base of taxpayers in this city. Without them, there simply would not be the money to pay for such things like a $300M arena, new convention centers, payouts to Wachovia for art facilites, etc.

In any case, how this develops, now and in the future on remaining land, is completely up to the Charlotte city council and I will say their record isn't good at all on this matter.

[monsoon]

The $300 M arena (which according to the tag-line on this board is $265 M) was not paid for with property taxes. This statement is just as bad as the propaganda that SCAT is now trying to use to repeal the transit tax.

[ChiefJoJo]

..Getting moved into the city means you are now paying taxes to support a different police and fire department and you get garbage pickup and street lights. Beyond that it isn't much of a burden to Charlotte and is revenue positive to the city for the costs paid. That is why the city is so quick to annex in new development. It's the people living in the urban core that are benefiting from the large surburban base of taxpayers in this city. Without them, there simply would not be the money to pay for such things like a $300M arena, new convention centers, payouts to Wachovia for art facilites, etc.

[monsoon]

.....

Think of it in these terms....it's akin to you not being able to pay your mortgage on your house, so you take out a home equity loan to give you enough cash to make your payments, in theory you can keep doing this until your home maxes out in value (city runs out of land to annex) and then you're fudgeed. The only other option is to keep refinancing with worse terms (raise taxes).

[atlrvr]

I haven't done an fiscal impact for Charlotte, but I was hired by the town of Matthews to look at the cost of new development. All forms of commercial development benefitted the town (with hotels being the most profitable). Residential developement had negative impacts to town revenue for all houses less than $180k, and all condos less than $160k for long term fiscal viability. This included fees and residential amenities such as property taxes on private vehicles.

Considering that Charlotte offers far more services that Matthews, it is a logical conclusion that the average home price in Charlotte would have to be higher to be cash-flow positive for the city over the long term.

For someone who criticizes the every governmental department in this county, it seems odd that you are assuming they make rational decisions when it comes to annexing. I don't know how many ways I can state the fact, but annexing is cash-flow postive in the short term, and cash flow negative over the long term.

And the public cost you mentioned has everything to do with whether it is annexed or not, because once annexed, the existing residents of Charlotte are responsible for paying for their new city services. It's not a equal shift, because the level of service is increased and road cost becoming city responsibility rather than the states.

[monsoon]

....

For someone who criticizes the every governmental department in this county, it seems odd that you are assuming they make rational decisions when it comes to annexing. I don't know how many ways I can state the fact, but annexing is cash-flow postive in the short term, and cash flow negative over the long term.....

[atlrvr]

Extra-terratorial jurisdiction can be just as effective as annexation at preventing sprawl, without imposing additional burdens on existing denizens. The fact that Charlotte doesn't manage it's ETJs properly, while true, has nothing to do with the fact that annexing low-density residential areas creates a long term financial burden for the city.

And I'm not sure how my example of Matthews illustrates the benefits of annexation, unless the areas being annexed are heavily commercial or have high-median home values. If you look at the map of where Charlotte is annexing in a couple of weeks, you will find that neither of those two conditions exist.

[monsoon]

... The fact that Charlotte doesn't manage it's ETJs properly, while true, has nothing to do with the fact that annexing low-density residential areas creates a long term financial burden for the city.....

[atlrvr]

Well, density is marginally higher in Dilworth than in Ballantyne, the commutes are typically shorter leading to less road wear, and the infrastructure has been in place for over 100 years so no bonds need to be issued to add fire stations, sewer lines etc, but besides those points, I'd agree, and if what the city was annexing resembled Ballantyne in the form of property values then I would agree that it's a good fiscal decision. Unfortunately, that's not what the city is annexing....the majority of it is sub-$200k housing (with similarly low density to Dilworth and Ballantyne) and that will cause negative long term cash for the city, because the cost to maintain the supportive infrastructure on a per unit basis is higher than that housing units ad valorem contribution.

[CLT2010]

I think the new south embodies being a development whore, it's so pro business.

[monsoon]

Well, density is marginally higher in Dilworth than in Ballantyne, the commutes are typically shorter leading to less road wear, and the infrastructure has been in place for over 100 years so no bonds need to be issued to add fire stations, sewer lines etc, but besides those points, I'd agree, and if what the city was annexing resembled Ballantyne in the form of property values then I would agree that it's a good fiscal decision. Unfortunately, that's not what the city is annexing....the majority of it is sub-$200k housing (with similarly low density to Dilworth and Ballantyne) and that will cause negative long term cash for the city, because the cost to maintain the supportive infrastructure on a per unit basis is higher than that housing units ad valorem contribution.

[Neo]

We talked about this a few years back. While I wouldn't mind seeing Charlotte eventually spill over into adjacent counties, I believe it was said that Charlotte and adjacent cities/towns have an agreement that we won't annex over the county line.

As an additional note on this...on July 1st, Concord is gaining ~3k residents via the Highland Creek subdivision which rests partly in Mecklenburg County. All of the residents will be part of the City of Concord but will have a Charlotte mailing address until the post office decides if they will receive a Concord mailing address instead.

The article was published in Concord's paper a couple of days ago, but it does point out that it can and is happening.

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