Perception of Charlotte Nationwide

[Minneapolitan]

WaMu is on its deathbed and will likely be bought be JPMorgan Chase. Your banker sounds jealous and ill-informed. Probably at Wells Fargo and still annoyed that Charlotte is a much more important financial center than San Francisco. Even at its healthiest, WaMu could never have begun to take over Bank of America. Where do people get these things?

Charlotte is not a much more important financial center than San Francisco. Charlotte is home to two banks with combined assets that rank them 2nd in the country.

BTW, I'll be in Charlotte in a couple weeks. I'm anxious to check out your lrt system.

[Commoner]

Charlotte is not a much more important financial center than San Francisco. Charlotte is home to two banks with combined assets that rank them 2nd in the country.

BTW, I'll be in Charlotte in a couple weeks. I'm anxious to check out your lrt system.

If you lump all of middle and northern CA private equity into "San Francisco" then I agree. If not, it's actually fairly close.

[Commoner]

Sorry you took what I said wrong. I was asking if Charlotte has other major industries besides banking, and the example about WaMu was just a "what if." Actually I'm not with Wells, I'm with Charles Schwab and it was Mr. Schwab himself who stated that we are already in recession and the financial industry will be a major player in the recession. Citigroup already announced layoffs yesterday and Merrill Lynch is in trouble. Actually Schwab has remained strong and Schwab bank did not involve itself in the mortgage madness. So my question is just like Orlando has a major stake in tourism (although the economy has diversified greatly in the past ten years where while tourism is still the number one employer, it makes up 20% less of the economy here then 10 years ago. EA sports and other video game companies and related businesses has become a large part of the economy, as well as the medical research industry, with Burnham Institute relocating to Orlando from San Diego, the UCF Medical School is under construction (UCF has the 2nd highest enrollment of Florida Universities and will be larger than UF in 5-10 years. There is a new VA Medical Center under construction, and Nemours Childrens Hospital under construction as well as major expansion of the areas two major hospital networks which are both among the top 5 largest systems in the country. I just wanted an example of what other business Charlotte has to offer as far as major industries. Nobody has mentioned anything else as long as I've been reading the Charlotte thread. I have a major interest in Charlotte, I've got a couple of friends who've moved there and I've considered moving there. One friend is on his way to moving back to Orlando next month and is giving up his great job, he personally didn't find what he expected in Charlotte. He misses the dining and nightlife scene. The other friend loves it because the crime rate is a lot lower and he's more of a conservative and says Charlotte is a better family city, Orlando being too liberal, which I find as a benefit.

Just a couple of general comments:

1. I'm shocked that Schwab would offer a WaMu purchase of BOA as a hypothetical. There are staggering regulatory obstacles (attendant to that or any other major BOA merger) and I don't believe WaMu's market capitalization is nearly large enough to "acquire" BOA.

2. A run-down on who (in the financial sector) is "caught up" in the subprime mess/credit crunch.

1. Mortgage originators who originated subprime loans. They're (a) not originating SPMs anymore and they can't offload the ones they did originate recently, so they're stuck with SPMs on their books. Also - because they can't offload (sell the mortgatges), they can't get cash to ... make more loans. When the merry-go-round stops for them, the record skips.

2. Investment banks. Sure, they didn't originate SPMs, but they took them from the originators (work with me here...), packaged them together, and sold pieces of those packages to a range of very sophisticated investors. When demand for SPM paper dried up, they couldn't sell it to investors anymore. Another problem -- sometimes the SPM paper was (intentionally) mixed with other paper (you can also sell high-yield corporate debt ... or student loan receivables ... or credit card receivables ... you name it, they can securitize it). It wasn't always easy to determine if "your" paper had SPMs in it. Therefore, since the market evaporated, the investment banks couldn't rationally price it. Nobody bought/sold. It's sort of like a clot, with these paper products (we'll call them CDOs) as the platelets. They need to move to get the capital flowing again.

THAT BEING SAID -- Charles Schwab is a retail brokerage. They fared well in that they didn't originate, securitize, buy or sell SPM paper. They're not an investment bank (in the traditional sense). They're a retail brokerage. Generally, as the economy in general goes, so go the retail brokerages.

[VistaLakes01]

Thanks for all your replies, you all did a great job answering my question. Both of my friends in Charlotte work for the airlines, I know that Charlotte was a big hub for one of the airlines. Is there a convention center in Charlotte and if so does it stay busy? Is it downtown and if so are there many luxury or convention hotels in the downtown area. How about boutique hotels? Are any of those tall skyscrapers hotels? Also, what part of the state is the tobacco area? And does the tobacco industry keep smoking laws lax in NC or the cities in NC? Just trying to add to my "perception" of Charlotte. I look at Charlotte as being one of the new big cities of this century, along with Orlando, Austin, Tampa, possibly Jacksonville, Raliegh, Indianapolis, Las Vegas (yuk), Phoenix, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, Richmond, (seems also like Des Moines and Omaha are growing a bit for those regions, possibly Baton Rouge since the Katrina catastrophy.) My perception is most of these cities are the new cities and boomtowns and most are different in their own right. I think Columbus, Oh and Cincinatti still have a chance, although Indy seems to be the big draw in that area more and more. I don't know much about Columbia, SC, but I seem to be hearing it mentioned more lately. So although my perception of Charlotte is in this category, you have helped me learn more about the city itself. One big question I also still have is I know NC has those 3 big metro areas, Charlotte, the Triad, and the Triangle, is it? What is the main difference between the 3 areas? Is there less of "center" in those other metros than Charlotte? Well, enough of the annoying questions..just very interested..........

[Raintree21]

a few answers to your questions:

airline hub- USAir

convention center- downtown Charlotte and stays busy/booked most days

hotels- several luxury hotels and more planned, none of the skyscrapers you see on the skyline are hotels (well, depends on your definition of skyscraper- hotels are sometimes in the skyline shots but they aren't our big boys). the only boutique hotel I can think of is the recent conversion of an old hotel to The Blake

tobacco area- the entire state has tobacco, but I'd say if anyone area had a dominance of it, it would be the eastern portion (east of Raleigh). Charlotte really does not have much farmland to speak of

tobacco laws- the common perception is that the eastern part of the state where said tobacco land is controls the state legislature, thus our virtual lack of anti-smoking laws

3 metro areas:

Triad- Greensboro, Winston-Salem, High Point and/or Burlington known traditionally for factories and industry

Triangle- "Research Triangle" of Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill known for their universities

Charlotte Metro- Charlotte, Gastonia/Belmont/etc., Concord/Kannapolis, Huntersville/Cornelius/Davidson, Mooresville, a little bit of everything

Edited January 17, 2008 by Raintree21

[krazeeboi]

Even though these two hotels aren't captured in the typical skyline shots, they come close to being "skyscraper hotels":

The Hilton

The Westin (to the right)

[nmcheese]

Having recently relocated to the other coast - there have been a few common themes in people's perception of Charlotte when I mention it as my previous place of residence. Granted the sample size is a few dozen tech-sector people in Seattle - not exactly representative of the whole population.

- Very few people have been to Charlotte or know anyone that has - not exactly a tourist destination.

- Basketball is the most commonly associated sport - though Tarheels, not the Bobcats

- The food people wonder if the whole barbecue thing lives up to the hype (if you get it at the right place)

- NASCAR has some followers even out here.

- People have identified it as 'the other place in the nation where the real estate market doesn't suck' - which is good, I suppose. (house hasn't sold yet though)

[fortyniner]

A couple of weeks ago, data was released showing Charlotte to be the 25th most visited city in the US. Our largest hotel is 600-700 rooms. Uptown has a few proposed hotels, and at least one under construction, but nothing really big. Our convention center is over 300k sq. ft., but insignificant compared to Chicago, Vegas, Orlando, etc. An expansion is to be added across the street and below street level, as part of the NASCAR HOF. Ten years ago, the city pushed for a 1000 room convention hotel, but the best we got was the Westin, less than 700 rooms, a really forgetable lobby area, but interesting architecture. Our airport is currently ranked 10th in the nation, based on the number of flights. The airport and USAirways hub is a great job magnet, but the ticket lobby is again very unimpressive, and the baggage area is worse yet. Changes are in the works, with a bigger lobby and LCD monitors (still almost a year off), but no major baggage area changes that I am aware of.

Uptown has really taken off in the last few years, but almost virtually devoid of any retail in the immediate uptown area. I expect this to change within the next 3 years. Light rail service began in late November and ridership has exceeded expectations. Next up, a link to the University (hopefully).

A 10,000 seat AAA minor league baseball stadium should begin construction this year, located within 4 blocks of the center of town. Education wise, the school system is a mess, although there are exceptions. Newcomers with kids seem to want their children in an adjoining county's school system. Regarding higher education here: UNC Charlotte has over 21k students, and in the next 10 years should be well over 30k. UNC Chapel Hill (150 miles away) plans to open some sort of "branch" here for 2 years of med school (a terrible idea IMO, since I feel UNC Charlotte should begin a med school).

The Charlotte School of Law is in its second year, a building a small campus west of uptown. The local community college is one of the largest in the nation. However, outside of UNC Charlotte, no other school has a large presence, with the exception of Winthrop U. in Rock Hill, SC, 25 miles to the south. Most of the NC born business community has ties to schools 100-150 miles away. UNC Charlotte is to build a large classroom building uptown soon, only a block from the light rail line. Hopefully, this will give the local university more ties to the business community.

Overall, a vibrant city, with plenty of room to get on board before it grows to a Tier One city.

[tiblerbrit]

^ Davidson is within Mecklenburg county and is usually ranked as a top 10 liberal arts university. A lot of students there enter the local business community.

[fortyniner]

^ Davidson is within Mecklenburg county and is usually ranked as a top 10 liberal arts university. A lot of students there enter the local business community.

True enough. Johnson&Wales, WFU, Pheifer, Wingate, Belmont Abbey, all have some kind of presence in the city. I was referring to size of the student body, not the quality of education or reputation. Actually, if anyone is interested, upon further considertion, I should have mentioned Queens Univ. at Charlotte and JCSU. My apologies to those schools.

I was just attempting to point out only one school has a student body of >10,000.

Personally, I've met people from outside the region who must think the Tar Heels and Blue Devils are in our metro. I've seen geographically challenged contestants on "Jeopardy" name Rocky Mount as the largest city in NC. Which ever town has the most exits on I-95 as they traverse from the Mid Atlantic to Disney World. My post wasn't for those blissfully ignorant souls, but for anyone who wanted to know more about the Queen City.

Edited January 18, 2008 by fortyniner

[AuLukey]

hey fortyniner, don't say "hopefully" about the NE line anymore. Now that we have gotten federal approval and the Blue Line continues to be a success, the numbers all add up. The only iffy part about it is whether the city can secure financing, whether the curve onto campus is built due to the difficulties navigating the wetlands on the northern end of campus, and whether or not Cabarrus County is serious about getting the line extended further (which may push back construction.) It is all but a certainty in my mind though as the campus master plan is being altered to accommodate this change. The placement of the uptown facility is almost directly correlated with its proximity to the LRT to make travel more convenient for students and professors once the line is built, especially during rush hour. IMO, 2013 can't come soon enough.

Also, as for uptown hotels, I know you said "at least 1," but remember that aLoft and the Ritz Carlton are under construction a block from each other and are both relatively mid-to-high end hotels.

As for the university system, I attend Charlotte, but I rarely run across somebody attending Davidson or Winthrop around the city. I do commonly run into students from J&W, JCSU, Queens, and CPCC (which I believe is the second largest community college in the nation, correct me if I'm wrong.) That doesn't mean that Davidson and Winthrop students don't have a presence in Charlotte proper. I just personally haven't seen them in droves like the other schools. I'm sure that has to do with geography, they play big parts in their local communities however which are part of the Charlotte metro as a whole. Also, the North Carolina Research Institute is being built within the metro right now as well. That will be a large asset to this area when it is completed.

It is unfortunate that Charlotte is so far off I-95 to lose that recognition "status" from tourists headed up and down the east coast. However, a great deal of drivers travel along 77 and 85 on their way towards Atlanta from the North. Much like the interstate signs up in WV along I-77, maybe a directional sign at Highway 74/I-95 that says Charlotte would help give the city a little more "face time," but wouldn't be very accurate.

Edited January 18, 2008 by aussie luke

[elvigy]

Our convention center is over 300k sq. ft., but insignificant compared to Chicago, Vegas, Orlando, etc. An expansion is to be added across the street and below street level, as part of the NASCAR HOF.

Comparing Charlotte's convention center to those particular three seems a bit unfair. Vegas and Orlando are huge tourist destinations and they can use that to their advantage to draw conventions. Chicago is, of course, the third largest city in the country and is a globally-connected city. While I do think that the Charlotte Convention Center should be bigger (and should have been built bigger from the start), I don't think we'll ever be able to compete with the convention-drawing power of those three. I'd say we now compete more with the middle tier of cities in the US and could, with time, compete with some but not all of the largest cities. We could potentially draw conventions away from Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis, etc. but I don't think we'll ever have the draw of Vegas or NYC or Orlando simply because we don't have the tourist appeal of those places.

[fortyniner]

hey fortyniner, don't say "hopefully" about the NE line anymore. Now that we have gotten federal approval and the Blue Line continues to be a success, the numbers all add up. The only iffy part about it is whether the city can secure financing, whether the curve onto campus is built due to the difficulties navigating the wetlands on the northern end of campus, and whether or not Cabarrus County is serious about getting the line extended further (which may push back construction.) It is all but a certainty in my mind though as the campus master plan is being altered to accommodate this change. The placement of the uptown facility is almost directly correlated with its proximity to the LRT to make travel more convenient for students and professors once the line is built, especially during rush hour. IMO, 2013 can't come soon enough.

Also, as for uptown hotels, I know you said "at least 1," but remember that aLoft and the Ritz Carlton are under construction a block from each other and are both relatively mid-to-high end hotels.

As for the university system, I attend Charlotte, but I rarely run across somebody attending Davidson or Winthrop around the city. I do commonly run into students from J&W, JCSU, Queens, and CPCC (which I believe is the second largest community college in the nation, correct me if I'm wrong.) That doesn't mean that Davidson and Winthrop students don't have a presence in Charlotte proper. I just personally haven't seen them in droves like the other schools. I'm sure that has to do with geography, they play big parts in their local communities however which are part of the Charlotte metro as a whole. Also, the North Carolina Research Institute is being built within the metro right now as well. That will be a large asset to this area when it is completed.

It is unfortunate that Charlotte is so far off I-95 to lose that recognition "status" from tourists headed up and down the east coast. However, a great deal of drivers travel along 77 and 85 on their way towards Atlanta from the North. Much like the interstate signs up in WV along I-77, maybe a directional sign at Highway 74/I-95 that says Charlotte would help give the city a little more "face time," but wouldn't be very accurate.

I was thinking of aLoft, and have to plead guilty for omitting the Ritz Carlton. Still, no mega hotels uptown. If the economic situation gets worse, I will start fearing the indefinite delay of Novare's TWELVE. However, Novare has enough resources of their own to make this work. I would like to see an artist's rendering on their web site, though.

A few years ago I drove a friend from Birmingham to Charlotte. The first mention of Charlotte's existance wasn't until we reached Spartanburg. Other cities our size, or smaller get mileage distances 150-200 miles away. My friend said she was beginning to wonder if we were on the right highway. I THINK you were joking about the I-95/74 intersection sign.

[Plasticman]

A few years ago I drove a friend from Birmingham to Charlotte. The first mention of Charlotte's existance wasn't until we reached Spartanburg. Other cities our size, or smaller get mileage distances 150-200 miles away. My friend said she was beginning to wonder if we were on the right highway. I THINK you were joking about the I-95/74 intersection sign.

Yaknow..that's true. I never noticed it in all the years I've driven the Atlanta/Charlotte route via I-85.

Even Memphis gets mentioned as far north as St. Louis.

My view of Charlotte is...

1. A huge growth center.

2. Impressive banking industry.

3. An impressive, ever-growing skyline suggesting a larger city than it is.

4. Wants to be compared to Atlanta, Houston, Miami, etc. as opposed to Nashville, Louisville and other more comparable cities much like a 9 year old boy wanting to seen with teenagers as opposed to some other 8-9 year olds. Frankly I don't blame you for aiming high. That's what has caused your current growth to begin with.

Edited January 18, 2008 by Plasticman

[brokenraven]

No offense intended, but I don't like Charlotte being compared to Atlanta. Not that Atlanta is a bad city (I've never even been there), I just don't like it being compared constantly to other cities. I always see people making the reference to Atlanta, possibly because It's so big and so close to Charlotte. I see your point, though.

Edited January 18, 2008 by brokenraven

[krazeeboi]

I thought the convention center (the entire structure) was over 700K sq ft? Are we talking about meeting/exhibition space alone with the 300K sq ft figure?

[VistaLakes01]

Comparing Charlotte's convention center to those particular three seems a bit unfair. Vegas and Orlando are huge tourist destinations and they can use that to their advantage to draw conventions. Chicago is, of course, the third largest city in the country and is a globally-connected city. While I do think that the Charlotte Convention Center should be bigger (and should have been built bigger from the start), I don't think we'll ever be able to compete with the convention-drawing power of those three. I'd say we now compete more with the middle tier of cities in the US and could, with time, compete with some but not all of the largest cities. We could potentially draw conventions away from Dallas, Houston, Minneapolis, etc. but I don't think we'll ever have the draw of Vegas or NYC or Orlando simply because we don't have the tourist appeal of those places.

Tourism in Orlando doesn't drive the convention business as much as one would think. The biggest draw has been expansion, expansion, and more expansion and the building of convention hotels. Floridians consider North Carolina as a top vacation destination. The large majority of conventioneers in Orlando don't spend much time at theme parks at all. Of course they are staying in very large resort hotels that you never have to leave to have a good and relaxing time, and the main interest of those coming to conventions in Orlando seems to be golf. That's what they do first break they get is get out and play golf. What has grown the convention center and the convention industry in Orlando is the fact that the tourist tax payed on hotel rooms has payed for the continued expansion of the convention center. The airport is a destination airport and looks it. It's surrounded by lush gardens and waterfalls and has plenty of places to spend leisure time. I'd say the main convention city with the tourist draw would be Las Vegas. There is the gambling and lots of adult oriented entertainment. Any city with the funding could come along regionally in the south and build better facilities than Atlanta, Nashville, or Memphis have to offer. The facilities themselves would pull a large part of the conventions in that area that aren't headed for Chicago,Orlando, or Las Vegas. And they are a huge boost to the local economy. I think Charlotte should try to compete in this industry, it would help to diversify your economy more and bring recongnition to the city, people would see Charlotte that normally may never get the chance and may decide to locate their business there.

[AuLukey]

A few years ago I drove a friend from Birmingham to Charlotte. The first mention of Charlotte's existance wasn't until we reached Spartanburg. Other cities our size, or smaller get mileage distances 150-200 miles away. My friend said she was beginning to wonder if we were on the right highway. I THINK you were joking about the I-95/74 intersection sign.

To my knowledge, Charlotte only has one such stretch. Driving down from Charleston, WV along I-75 and I-77, you see interstate signs for Charlotte every twenty-fifty miles almost the whole way.

and yes, i was joking about the 95/74 sign.

[Raintree21]

I was just attempting to point out only one school has a student body of >10,000.

CPCC (which I believe is the second largest community college in the nation, correct me if I'm wrong.)

CPCC has over 70,000 students. Granted many of them are not full time but that is still a massive number.

[fortyniner]

CPCC has over 70,000 students. Granted many of them are not full time but that is still a massive number.

True. CPCC has a lot of part time students. Post graduation, I have taken numerous courses there for either hobby or general interest. BTW, UNC Charlotte's enrollment is also significantly higher when part time students are counted (although no where near that 70k figure for CPCC).

[HopHead]

There's an article in today's Observer that said there are now 25 cranes in and around Uptown Charlotte. Almost another dozen will be up later this year. Also worth noting, while nation saw a 2.5% decline in construction jobs, Charlotte added 3.3% more construction jobs in 2007.

[Mobuchu]

Especially for a city our size, 25 cranes is very impressive. Its what impressed my family the most when they visited during the holidays. The amount of construction between the stadium and Met midtown.

[monsoon]

Using that as a yardstick, the most impressive city in the Carolinas would be Myrtle Beach which far outstrips Charlotte in high rise construction. Honestly this is another "fluff" piece from the Observer where news is made of the obvious.

[Mobuchu]

I haven't been to MB in about 2 years, does it really have that much going on?

Still, having the concentration of cranes like we do on S. Tryon always amazes me, and certainly makes a statement to our vistors.

And fluff is the Observers middle name

[monsoon]

Possibly, but given the economic news in the world, one does wonder how much of this are cranes putting up a houses of cards. I noted somewhere else that several of the cranes in Myrtle Beach have simply stopped on partially completed buildings. Apparently the owners don't have the money to take them down.