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Norfolk Union Mission Expansion Progress


cpeakesqr

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  • 8 months later...

I don't recall the For Sale signs going down and coming back up, it seems to me they have been up all along? Who knows, at least every other building in downtown Norfolk is for sale. All the infestors (investors) are looking to dump the properties, then buy them up at half price or less in a few years. Wash, rinse, dry, cycle.

What would be interesting if there was rentable meeting space for groups to gather inside. That is, if there were groups to gather in Hampton Roads. Parking would probably be an issue, because the current tenants are generally homeless. Yes there is a parking garage across the street but the cost might make it less attractive.

What would be a good use...

The idea of moving the homeless shelter away is to work on getting the poor people out of downtown. I'd imagine for downtown Norfolk to truely be successful, the poor black people need to be moved away so the wealthier white people feel less threatened (not picking a fight, being honest).

But in the end, I bet there is no one to take the space for a while. I could be wrong, but the apartment market is being obliverated. I just saw one of the recent condo projects ... they appear to possibly be trying to list the unsellable units for rent. For $2000/month you too can rent a condo! Guffaw. Sure, maybe an investor bought a bunch to list, but it's odd to see a bunch of different models up for rent.

Not to mention some 1000+ apartments coming on the market, along with losses of employment.

If anything, demand for Union Mission space might skyrocket.

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I don't recall the For Sale signs going down and coming back up, it seems to me they have been up all along? Who knows, at least every other building in downtown Norfolk is for sale. All the infestors (investors) are looking to dump the properties, then buy them up at half price or less in a few years. Wash, rinse, dry, cycle.

The idea of moving the homeless shelter away is to work on getting the poor people out of downtown. I'd imagine for downtown Norfolk to truely be successful, the poor black people need to be moved away so the wealthier white people feel less threatened (not picking a fight, being honest).

I live about a block from the Union Mission and have never felt threatened by it's presense or the people who live there. I would not have bought where I did if I felt threatened. Most of my neighbors feel the same. I will grant you that some are uncomfortable, but they are not the majority. Most feel a great sense of compassion and many do what they can to help.

Certainly there is a thought to moving the homeless away from downtown. I don't know too many who promote a homeless shelter as being compatible with or important to an area in the midst of growth and revitalization. However, the overriding reason for the move is that after nearly 100 years of use, the Brooke St. building is obsolete, and more and more people need help in a variety of ways.

The Union Mission no longer just serves older homeless men. It now also serves women and children in growing numbers. The existing building is not big enough nor does it have the type of facilities needed to help homeless people rehabilitate their lives.

To meet these needs, the Union Mission has bought the old Virginia Natural Gas 21 acre property just east of Broad Creek on Virginia Beach Blvd., and embarked on a $25,000,000 capital campaign (their first ever) to build/renovate a Thrift Store, a Community Service Center, a Temporary Men's Shelter, a Women's and Family Shelter, a Men's shelter, a Dining Room, a Chapel and Classrooms. The sale of the Brooke Ave. property is a key ingredient in making the numbers work for the Union Mission.

The "For Sale" signs never went down, but the effort to sell was put on hold. It is now back in high gear. A well-known local real estate company, likely run by a bunch of wealthy white people, has agreed to market and handle all the details of selling the property free of charge to the Union MIssion.

The Union Mission does good work. Call Linda Farthing (757-466-4470) if you'd like to learn more.

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  • 1 month later...

Norfolk Asked to Buy Union Mission

An influential real estate developer and prominent attorney want the city to purchase the downtown Union Mission homeless shelter.

In a two-page letter to the City Council dated July 29, Harvey Lindsay Jr. and Vincent J. Mastracco Jr. state that the Union Mission needs to sell the century-old building in order to move to a new campus on Virginia Beach Boulevard.

City officials said that as much as they would like Norfolk to own the Brooke Avenue property, the city doesn't have the money. And some said they were offended by the letter, which also says that "there are those who feel the city has treated the Mission badly in this relocation process."

and while i don't agree with many MANY things that Riddick says, i think he hits the nail on the head:

Councilman Paul R. Riddick said Union Mission officials should have accepted offers they received to purchase the property before the real estate slump. "They're just going to have to ride it out like everyone else," he said.
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Why doesn't Harvey Lindsay Jr. buy the property.

I know that he could afford it!

If he doesn't want to buy it, then why doesn't his company donate $5 million to the Union Mission for a tax write off.

It's much easier than the city buying it! <_<

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I was examining the building and its site today and I got thinking. If a nice retailer (Saks, etc.) would move in that resolve some issues the City is facing and be a step forward towards positive redevelopment. This would increase foot traffic on the streets and serve as a destination north of Nauticus. The shelter adjacent to the Mission could certainly serve as offices for firms that want a "forward" image.

The last thing the City needs is another hotel proposal. Along with that, there's a high number of housing stock in the concentrated area and it's in need of variety and destination points (as much as I like The Market, it doesn't cut it).

There's a stigma here with developers that if something has the opportunity to be redeveloped and has windows it can be a condo project, because it's simple and has the potential to provide the "biggest bang for the buck" in the short term- not long term.

Norfolk has the potential to grow, maybe not by leaps and bounds like other big cities, but a nice growth if the developers starting getting smart and do something that success sometimes requires- risks.

The SW corner of the site would be nice to have a restaurant provided that the current setbacks can support patio seating. This would require part of the wall to be knocked down to provide for a doorway, but if done correctly it can add character.

No matter what the building needs to be saved, it's too beautiful to have it leveled for a big box with no character.

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Norfolk has the potential to grow, maybe not by leaps and bounds like other big cities, but a nice growth if the developers starting getting smart and do something that success sometimes requires- risks.

The SW corner of the site would be nice to have a restaurant provided that the current setbacks can support patio seating. This would require part of the wall to be knocked down to provide for a doorway, but if done correctly it can add character.

No matter what the building needs to be saved, it's too beautiful to have it leveled for a big box with no character.

I have to agree with your comments. One thing that makes me feel good is that the mayor says the building should be preserved. I was starting to worry that it would be torn down for an office building. The character and style of this historic building can go a long way to attract tenants. I like the idea of having an open patio that drivers can visualize as they go by. Makes you want to be there rather than sit in traffic.

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What is the demand? What could take the space, and make money, without taxpayers funding it?

As far as begging the city to buy it, they can shove that. If no one private is willing to buy it, that means it's overpriced. There *is* a price at which everything will sell.

I've got a 14 space equipment rack sitting behind me. I listed it on Craigs for $160. No bites. $140. No bites. Someone asks questions and I look it up, turns out the gov't pays $1,600 for them. That doesn't mean I can get $160 for it on craigslist. At $120 I start getting emails. OH WELL! Market sets price.

Same thing with my argon laser system. Sure it was worth $16,000 once. But now I can't seem to get $1,600. Damn you, technology.

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What is the demand?

It's a huge structure that can be an anchor relative to its location. With many believing that "suburban flight" is coming that's enough for many investors to buy in, but they have to be willing to take the "hit" now.

Why would people (investors) be optomistic? It's a homeless shelter, something that is usually regarded as a staple in downtown areas, and they are looking to relocate outside of DT. Moving out of that area is a sign that things are coming together from a $ standpoint.

Someone posted on skyscraperpage.com (maybe a member here as well) photos of downtown Norfolk and the overall opinion of members was, "Nice city, nice open space [TPP], but where are the people?" Then they replied, "I'd be down there all day everyday with views and walkable streets like those." I'm sure anyone looking for a 7 story building in a downtown setting would say the same thing.

Does anyone know how good the "bones" of the Union are?

This is just my take, but I think Union should have the decency to ask the City what they want it zoned if they were to move out. Having the City and Union take the necessary steps to make that happen would be a win/win for both. Union should then auction the site off through a large property auction house (outside HR and Richmond) to get the "word" out to the other regions that Norfolk is growing and get new blood in here. Plus, there's money that wants to look outside its current areas right now anyway.

Tel- I don't think anyone on UP believes that the City buying it right now would solve anything other than put a larger hole in the budget.

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Does anyone know how good the "bones" of the Union are?

I don't know what condition the structural frame is in. However, if the building has a steel or concrete frame, it can usually be repaired. Repairing the finishes that have to be removed to get to the frame is the expensive part. But if the renovation requires removal of all of the finishes down to the bare frame anyway, the repair costs are usually not prohibitive unless the deterioration is quite extensive. Wood framing is more difficult, but it can be repaired as well. If there are settlement problems or other foundation problems, it might be cheaper to tear the building down and start over.

The real problem in converting these buildings is the structural capacity, not the structural condition. Engineers refer to the weight of all of the people, furniture, etc. inside a building as "live load". The building code stipulates the live load for various occupancies. For residential structures (hotels, condos, dormitories, etc.), the required live load is 40 pounds per square foot (PSF), and has been for decades. Office buildings require a live load of 50 PSF plus an extra 15 PSF for the weight of the partitions. Public spaces like retail, restaurants, museums, etc. require 100 PSF. Increasing the structural capacity of the framing system is usually cost-prohibitive, and sometimes it is impossible.

Since the Union Mission was originally designed as a YMCA dormitory, changing the occupancy of the Union Mission from residential to office (or to retail as was suggested earlier) is probably not feasible. It will almost have to remain a residential occupancy.

By the way, the City of Virginia Beach got burned by this about ten years ago. They bought a Days Inn on Bonney Road for $5 million, planning to convert it to office space for the city. When they found out how much it would cost to convert the building, they dumped the whole idea. They sold the hotel to a developer for $1.25 million.

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Since the Union Mission was originally designed as a YMCA dormitory, changing the occupancy of the Union Mission from residential to office (or to retail as was suggested earlier) is probably not feasible. It will almost have to remain a residential occupancy.
Really intersting -- great viewpoint from an expert, not a pontificator, like me. Quick question -- would the ground floor potentially meet the 100 PSF limit, while the upper floors are residential?
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  • 3 years later...

The renderings look good, looks like the addition will have a concrete base to it, and it is definitely a good example of renovating an old structure and building a new structure next to it that doesnt try to mimic the old building, but does a good job complimenting the building. I can't wait to see photos of this going up in downtown.

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yeah, I tried to post the council agenda yesterday, but I see it didn't go through.

I was siked when I saw that they were voting on the zoning and approval of this. I'm not sure if retail was apart of the original design. I wonder will this lower rent structure, etc.. would justified a new market in DT.

Obviously freemason people do not cook their own food.

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I think the Market left prematurely. In my opinion they should have downsized the store and subleased a portion to someone else.

I like the fact that the add on is modern and not a mimic of the old building as well. It will be interesting to see how the city tries to control the design.

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The renderings look good, looks like the addition will have a concrete base to it, and it is definitely a good example of renovating an old structure and building a new structure next to it that doesnt try to mimic the old building, but does a good job complimenting the building. I can't wait to see photos of this going up in downtown.

I am very pleased with what I saw on the elevations for the project. I don't like precast concrete or cement panels for a facade, but I am confident this firm can put it together nicely with the project. I do like the trellis at the top of the building. This is the same firm who renovated the Rotunda which I consider one of the best renovations the world has ever seen.

This on paper looks like a nice complementary project to the Union MIssion. Hopefully construction will begin soon.

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