The Greensboro Triumph Center

[cityboi]

Honestly, I think it has little to do with race, but the fact that this guy is not a reputable developer who has a track record of large scale mixed use projects. No one comes out the blue and reports their plans for not 1, but 3 highrises plus more on expensive downtown land. The website isnt professional. The links in that Jan. '11 article do not work. I really think we should let this one go. It has never really had any signs of being a genuine proposal...only one man's dream for Greensboro.

true but this wasn't the first time a developer who had little to no experience proposed a large scale project downtown. 26 year old John Adcox who is white proposed a 15-story luxury condo hotel with a spa on the land where Mr Cain is planning his project. Mr Adcox had never developed anything before yet he was taken seriously at the time before his plan fell through. I don't know maybe because its very rare that an African-American developer in this area takes on a project that large. I'd like to think we live in a color blind world but people do notice race. The media reported that Mr Cain had meeting with a few movers and shakers in town and he was totally disrespected. One actually walked out on him. When Mr Cain first proposed his project it was up to $300 million. But keep in mind any project of that scale is going to be built in phases. $300 million is a lot of many but in some cities big arenas cost that much to be constructed.

[twincity]

I dont think any of us really knows what was said behind closed doors but you know more about Triumph Center than I do. I really hope it has nothing to do with race. All Im saying is...

John Adcox : young, zero experience. wants to building a high-rise hotel. Where is it?

Roy Carroll: experienced multi-unit housing developer. wants to renovate an office highrise for condos. There it is.

This is what Im getting from Mr. Cain. He does not have the portfolio to make anyone believe his vision can become a reality.

[cityboi]

I know a lot of people have written Isaac Cain and his downtown Greensboro Triumph Center off. But he still claims hes moving forward and even stated some investors recently came to town this past month and was impressed with his plans. However he said it would be built in phases. His plan competes with the current proposal for a 3,200 seat performing arts center. The difference is Cain proposes a 4,000 seat venue for even larger acts and it would have a restaurant inside so people could see the shows while they eat. I found more details about his plan and you can understand why people don't take it seriously. Mr Cain lists tenants in this project such as Saks Fifth Ave, Barnes & Noble and Cheesecake Factory, like an urban mini mall. But he claims because this is a tourist/entertainment/convention concept, the project could support these kind of retailers and restaurants. Honestly it does look like a pipe dream (in terms of size and scope) One can argue if Greensboro could support a Saks Fifth but the city already has one high end retailer (Brooks Brothers) and it hasn't closed down yet. Saks Fifth Avenue in Greensboro is not pie in the sky. But where would they most likely locate? downtown or the Shops at Friendly Center? I would still love to see something like this happen no matter how far fetched it may seem to many. its still ok to dream. The concept is similar to Great Wolf Lodge (a short drive vacation get away) But the convention center, vacation elements and major entertainment shows is what make Cain's project work. Without that, the hotel and the retail stores can't survive. The question is could Greensboro support two convention centers? The city already has the 250,000 sq ft Koury Convention Center. The city has proven its a convention and trade show destination. There are plenty of conventions to go around and Koury can only host so many conventions at one time. The city has also been successful at attracting high profile events at the coliseum. Cain's lack of experience as a developer has been brought up. If he could partner with one or more well established developers the general public would buy into this and maybe some form of the project could get off the ground. The scope of it may have to be downsized. It was mentioned that that he was looking to partner with out of state developers. That's where the "Orlando development company" came in.

BTW I have been doing some digging with my investigation skills and I have strong suspicions that Mr Cain or someone related to him has been reading and may have been posting in this thread.

Mr Cain's overall description of "Ardent Square"

"The Ardent Square will have two entertainment complexes, one is the concert hall, and the other is the entertainment pavilion. The hotel accommodations, residential mixed use, and a variety of shopping venues, are all directly linked to the concept of making one of the most exciting entertainment venues for southern vacationers. Because of the entertainment features, it is projected that travel agencies will be the basis for the substantial majority of reservations made at the site. The target market for the Ardent Square includes vacationers and trade show convention participants from all over the continental United States . Unlike many hotel venues which base their reservations upon the travel plans of motorists, this entertainment development will be stimulated by the bookings of entertainment figures whose activities will be sold in performance packages. This added feature will make the Ardent Square function like a stationary cruise liner. Instead of selling rooms, the Ardent Square will sell entertainment and convention packages.

Featuring the projects anchor is the Performing Arts theater concert hall with a blues style restaurant that will service the hotel and the state of the art 4,000 seating concert hall for an intimate theater style restaurant experience. Adjoining the concert hall is the 25- Story luxury hotel and spa offering 300 spacious rooms and suites. The theater concert hall will feature local and professional top name acts from all over the world according to our national booking agent. This is why the live entertainment facility will be our main anchor. The destination will take advantage of the $16.9 billion convention and tourism market in North Carolina. Guilford counties portion of that market equals $1 billion in revenue. We would utilize our travel agencies to enter into the regional as well as local tourism market to fill the hotel at 75% capacity.

A residential mixed use with 251 units, it is proposed as a high rise 15- story commercial and residential tower consisting of anchor tenants such as Barnes & Nobles, Walgreens, Cheese Cake Factory, and Starbucks. With long term leases and permanent tenants, market studies reveal that young professionals and retired baby boomers are seeking residential accommodations within the central city. Due to shifts in the economy, market appeal, and the convenience of Downtown living, such residential options have become increasingly popular among conscious Americans. A small percentage of residential facilities will be offered to the graduate college student population within the cities central district.

The family entertainment pavilion will consist of a mini mall for shopping (consisting of stores such as Burberry, Cole Hann, Saks Fifth Ave. and Forever 21 to name a few) We will also have a 250,000 square foot entertainment facility for the youth, 3D IMAX theaters, skating rink, bowling, indoor rock climbing, video arcades, rides and etc., will be an additional drawing tool. Parking for the development will be a major part of planning due to the destinations potential to draw large numbers.

The development will be built with the latest in green technology therefore complying with the mandate to conserve our natural resources this will also be a benefit to the residential and commercial clients because it will reduce their utility bills considerably.

Greensboro is centrally located between Raleigh/Durham and Charlotte NC, Washington DC and Atlanta, as well as New York City and Miami. This is a perfect location for the convention destination project. As the convention market grows, downtown living and entertainment grow, so will our quest to satisfy the needs of our ever evolving economy.

Some ask will there be enough market to satisfy our claim. According to our research at a glance, we will awaken a sleeping giant of tourism that can only be maximized in our city by virtue of location and accessibility.

We invite you to consider the passion of the Ardent Square ."

[JerseyBoy]

The more I read about this preposterous dream, I am increasingly convinced that Cain's warped vision appears to be fixated on the 1980's:

"it is projected that travel agencies will be the basis for the substantial majority of reservations made at the site."

Who in the world uses travel agencies anymore? This type of service that was once very necessary for travelers is now, for all intents and purposes, dead. Orbitz, Priceline, Hotwire anyone?

"We will also have a 250,000 square foot entertainment facility for the youth...skating rink...video arcades..."

Today's kids do not go out to roller skate or play arcade style video games.

The website for this project is very amateur looking and its descriptions and information reek of poor, coloquial grammar. Not very professional, if you ask me. One glance at the site and information you posted above, and one can tell that this is a project proposed by someone who has no knowledge whatsoever about real estate, the retail and commercial markets, and the convention industry. It's nice to dream, and I'm not knocking anyone for doing that. However, let's come back down to Earth and be realistic about what can actually happen in a city the size of Greensboro and in today's turbulent economic times. Triumph Center/Ardent Square (whatever it's called now) is simply a hodgepodge of pie-in-the-sky ideas and concepts that have zero chance of happening. It should not be taken seriously, and it never should have been.

[gman430]

I agree 100% with JerseyBoy. Just put this Inception dream land development out of its misery already. It's been five years since it was first announced. Time to realize it will never get built (which should have been done years ago) and move on. Oh and whatever this developer if you can call him that is smoking, I want a whiff. Seriously....Cole Hann, Saks Fifth Avenue, and Burberry in Greensboro? No investors unless they're drunk are going to finance this project.

[cityboi]

Jersey Boy you may be right. But at least at one time some big developers out of Orlando were ready to help Cain out with this project until the economy started to tank. Greensboro can support the concept. Its a matter how big it is in size and scope and the kind of retail it can support. If Mr Cain is serious, he's going to have to downsize his plans, understand our demographics better and partner with more experienced developers. Also nothing would happen anyway until the economy turns around, I don't care how financially sound the project is.

There is nothing unrealistic about a Saks Fifth Avenue in Greensboro. We already have Brooks Brothers. Thats evidence Greensboro can support upscale retail chains. But realistically, it would be located at the Shops at Friendly Center, not downtown. Charlotte doesn't even have a Saks Fifth Avenue downtown and the Queen City has more downtown attractions and downtown residential.

[Rufus]

Having a Brooks Brothers, while certainly upscale, doesn't justify more upscale retail. It's not that simple. Retail is not expanding as much as they were in the past, and especially not as fast since this isn't China or the Middle East. I'm not saying Greensboro can't support luxury retail, but you making the point that Charlotte doesn't have a Saks is exactly why Greensboro won't get a Saks. Even if it were a healthy company, there are plenty of cities that have a little more disposable wealth that would be higher on the totem pole.

If Mr. Cain were serious about the retail portion, he would try and rub shoulders with VF Corporation. It's a Greensboro company, Fortune 500, that has brands like North Face, Seven, and John Varvatos. Doing so could add to the private support and make it look a little more feasible.

[cityboi]

Charlotte and Raleigh both have a Saks Fifth. They just don't have one downtown which is why even if Greensboro got a Saks Fifth, the only place in the city it would go is the Shops at Friendly Center. With a weak economy, I doubt a retailer like that would come into Greensboro at this time. But I believe the city can support a store because Friendly Center is a regional shopping center. The problem with downtown retail is that you don't see the big chains moving into downtown locations. Any retail space in Cain's plan would accommodate local retailers and boutique shops. Again his concept can work but he'll have to downsize the plan and alter or remove some of the amenities. A smaller scale version of his plan (in a good economy) is doable. Instead of this being a tourist destination drawing people from a 100 mile radius, make it a local entertainment destination. One thing about downtown Greensboro is that entertainment venues do extremely well there. Instead of a big 300 room convention hotel, build a modest 100 to 150 room hotel with some conference space. Ditch the condos and add apartments. Include limited the amount of retail and commercial space. He'll have to remove the concert hall from his plan since a performing arts center is already being planned for downtown. Instead of a three block development, a smaller scale project could be compact and take up a block making land acquisition easier and less costly. A project such as this would be great for the Duke Power site next to the Children's Museum. Reducing the size and scope brings the price down, makes it more realistic and financially feasible. I don't think the concept in general should be abandoned. A mixed-use entertainment complex would be great for downtown. Its not a laughable concept for Greensboro if done right. Its a matter of building something right for Greensboro and the city's demographics. Arcades and a roller skating rink was brought up. I don't recall seeing a big arcade in the plan. It looks more like simulator rides. People still roller skate particularly families with young children. But I would include something more exciting than a roller rink. The cosmic bowling alley is a cool idea though.

I'd like to see a bowling alley in the entertainment complex have a very urban warehouse look like in the picture below. In fact the architecture of the entire complex should have the historic Greensboro vibe instead of looking like something from Disneyland or Las Vegas.

A bowling alley like this would do well in downtown Greensboro. Its a great place for young adults to take their friends, have a few beers and have a good time. Greensboro needs to expand its downtown entertainment options beyond bars and nightclubs.

The complex could support an IMAX theater as well

Instead of a 4,000 seat concert hall Cain could include a much smaller dinner theater and a comedy club

Simulator rides are doable

Even an indoor gokart track for the kids is possible. The entertainment complex would be great for birthday parties.

With just the amenities I listed above with the photos, an entertainment complex is feasible.

Instead of a 25-story 300 room luxury convention hotel, I can envision an 8-story 150 room mid price hotel with conference space. Because of the associated entertainment attractions, a hotel this size would do well downtown. In fact it would do better than the Marriott which is pretty much isolated in a dead part of downtown at night.

The residential part of the project could look similar to this. Restaurants and some shops on the first floor with apartments on the upper floors.

I agree with Jerseyboy in regards to the website. Mr Cain needs to hire a website designer. Unless Mr Cain partners with some reputable developers, people won't take him seriously. Honestly I don't think Cain can do it alone.

[gman430]

Charlotte does not have a Saks Fifth Avenue cityboi. Maybe you're thinking of Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus? Honestly, I think Cain would be better off proposing something like this: http://www.onegreenville.com It's a smaller scale and doable project that doesn't make people go "what is this guy thinking."

[cityboi]

Charlotte does not have a Saks Fifth Avenue cityboi. Maybe you're thinking of Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus? Honestly, I think Cain would be better off proposing something like this: http://www.onegreenville.com It's a smaller scale and doable project that doesn't make people go "what is this guy thinking."

You're right Charlotte doesn't have one. But I checked and Raleigh has a Saks Fifth Avenue. But yes a project like the one in Greenville is doable in downtown Greensboro. Even though Greensboro is larger than Greenville, Greenville is about 10 years ahead of Greensboro with its downtown. I'm really impressed with whats happening in downtown Greenville.

Maybe one day the big retailers will return to downtowns across America. The biggest hurdles for these stores locating in a downtown setting is high land cost and parking. However some big retailer have managed to locate to the downtown of some cities like this urban Walmart in White Plains, NY (photo below). The parking problem was solved with a parking deck. But its much more expensive to build a parking deck than a big asphalt parking lot. I know some people don't like the idea of chains locating downtown and would rather have unique local based retail. That's all fine because those elements make downtown unique. But the big chains attract a lot of shoppers. Many people also say one reason why big chain retail stores don't move to downtowns is because there isn't enough downtown residential. That never did make any sense to me because typically anywhere else in the city big chain retail look at a radius of several miles to determine if its a good location for a store, not just with a half a mile. There is nothing but residential surrounding downtown Greensboro and a few higher income neighborhoods are less the two miles from downtown. I think the biggest hurdle is finding land, the cost of the land and parking.

Here is an urban Home Depot

urban Target Store. When they are built in downtowns they are called "City Target" and they are smaller than a typical Target Store. "City Target" is a new concept and they are currently going up in the largest cities. We are seeing a reversing trend with retail and shopping coming back downtown at least in the big cities. I think its going to take another 20 or 25 years before we see a lot of big chain stores in the downtowns of most mid-size to large cities. Downtowns are authentic. Suburban life style centers designed to look like downtown are not.

[RALNATIVE]

I can just see it now, people all over the country planning to head to downtown Greensboro, NC on vacation, so that they can experience the grand entertainment options and shop on Greensboro's equivalent of Rodeo Dr, as Cain envisions it.

[krazeeboi]

I can just see it now, people all over the country planning to head to downtown Greensboro, NC on vacation, so that they can experience the grand entertainment options and shop on Greensboro's equivalent of Rodeo Dr, as Cain envisions it.

Now this whole concept might be pie-in-the-sky as is, but I never read anywhere where the developer envisioned this as turning downtown Greensboro into a national leisure vacation destination as you've stated. Something more reasonably conceived with entertainment venues and meeting space could take downtown Greensboro to the next level, however. The city is already a convention destination and has a pretty active downtown so there's a lot in place to work with.

[cityboi]

Mr Cain did give us an update on his website. I'm not sure what to make of this for a project that is suppose to be pie in the sky. It seems weird but here is what he states.......

"Now after five years of diligence we have 90% LTV institutional financing. We are almost there."

"Exempt Inc. is pleased to announce that a veteran CPA out of New York City has located a financial institution that has pre-approved the project for 90% LTV on debt financing of $200 million dollars. We have been graciously successful in locating money for this aggressive concept. A retired associate of ExxonMobil was hired and will assist us in getting the remaining 10% to close the deal. We have already secured a line of credit at Sterne Agee from the resources of Napper Investments, LLC. We believe these connections will become a great asset to our company and the project. This move will compliment us on our philosophy and will insure us that our projects are structured and supported financially. Exempt Inc. the development company is now preparing to sell stock via private offering to raise necessary capital to fund operations. A Private Placement Memorandum is being prepared for qualified investors."

The question is what financial institution has pre approved any kind of financing for this project and who are the individuals or groups investing in the project to make this financing structure work?

[Urbanity]

Out of curiosity - I looked up the information and the filing that it references is from January 2011 and it expires July 31, 2012 (three weeks from today) which seems weird to me that this would be an update now. Maybe I am misreading it?

Also the amount listed on the filings (Project Cost: $354MM, Land Cost:$11MM, Soft Cost: $46MM) don't seem to match the amount that they are talking about on their site ($200MM of debt financing.) Does this mean the project has been scaled back dramatically?

I think it would be great to see Greensboro get this project but I don't really get the developer's website.

[cityboi]

Out of curiosity - I looked up the information and the filing that it references is from January 2011 and it expires July 31, 2012 (three weeks from today) which seems weird to me that this would be an update now. Maybe I am misreading it?

Also the amount listed on the filings (Project Cost: $354MM, Land Cost:$11MM, Soft Cost: $46MM) don't seem to match the amount that they are talking about on their site ($200MM of debt financing.) Does this mean the project has been scaled back dramatically?

I think it would be great to see Greensboro get this project but I don't really get the developer's website.

If this project has any legs at all, which many doubt it does, I would think it would have to be scaled back in size and scope. Even in good economic times a project of this scale is a challenge. His updates are puzzling but he seems serious about his plans. Again I don't think he can pull it off alone. He's going to need some big players involved with this to make it happen. I do think some form of this project would be great for downtown. I'm not sure how he was able to find a financial institution to finance a good chuck of it. I must admit it is strange unless Mr Cain knows something we don't. Most people aren't going to take this seriously unless we see this project actually move forward. Until then, unfortunately people are going to ridicule this guy. I'm rooting for this despite the odds and I'd love to see him come out on top and say I told you so. For a short three months in the summer of 2007, everyone including the staff at downtown Greensboro, Inc were taking this project seriously. At the time some big Orlando development company along with international investors were going to help get this off the ground but apparently they pulled out.

I looked at the contact us section on Mr. Cain's www.exemptinc.com website and it appears that a former Greensboro city councilman and former member of NC state house of representatives is a project advisor.

Former Downtown Greensboro Inc, president Ray Gibbs said this about Mr Cain in a past Triad Business Journal article.

"Ray Gibbs, the former president of Downtown Greensboro Inc., who is now working as a design consultant for Cain, has seen all manners of dreamers pass through downtown over the past seven years. He tends to give everyone the benefit of the doubt until he's proven wrong.

And while he says he will no longer serve as an unofficial spokesman for Cain or his project, Gibbs says that he remains impressed with Cain's vision, his determination and his ability to connect with financial backers (still unnamed) from Wall Street to the West Coast.

"There is a conditional letter of credit for $300 million; I've seen the letter," Gibbs says. "It is a national financial organization. That's all I can say. But Isaac is continuing to meet with financial backers. He is nearing contracts on two pieces of land."

"Look, this is an iffy project, no question about it. Anything this big runs huge risks. But he's not making this stuff up. It's not a hoax."

[cityboi]

Mr Cain has an update on his project.

"Exempt Inc. is pleased to announce that the company has resourced $450 million in collateral from a private investor to obtain necessary financing of the Triumph Center Development project. The firm has agreed to assign the collateral in exchange for revenue sharing opportunities. We have been graciously successful in locating money for this aggressive concept"

http://www.greensbor...ifications.html

[cityboi]

Mr Cain has added a colored pencil rendering. Doesn't he realize a performing arts center and two hotels are under way? In the summer 2007, the local media was covering this like crazy.

 

http://www.greensborotriumphcenter.info/Project_Specifications.html

[Urbanity]

Mr Cain has added a colored pencil rendering

I'm sorry, but...  

[RALNATIVE]

Wasn't this thing pretty much exposed as BS?

 

Why would anyone in their right mind consider it a viable project? I don't get it...

[DanRNC]

Well it will have "Love Boat" style entertainment venues that are healthy and wholesome. Sold. Maybe NC has learned its lesson with flim flammers after a bunch of these other boondoggles. 

[RALNATIVE]

Just out of curiosity, I took a look at that website and the so called guestbook. I was taken aback at some of those comments posted there. They sound like they are written by a 6 year old, and by the same person with poor grammar skills. Ramblings about skyscrapers, how Greensboro falls behind WS, Raleigh, and Charlotte, etc.

 

To be honest, the whole thing is quite sad...

[DCB]

This really is something that would've been an incredible longshot even when the banks were practically giving out money for free, let alone now. Honestly, projects of this scale are extremely risky even in the best of conditions and have often ended up losing money even when they have broad support from local governments. The best way of building an "entertainment district" is to do it piecemeal and let it form naturally, not as some grand, risky project.

[RALNATIVE]

You also need a developer that actually has the ability and a track record. I don't want to be cynical, but I do like being realistic. There were so many missing pieces to this concept that it basically never stood a chance.

[Urbanity]

I just took a look at the guest book and had to laugh a little (who puts a guest book on a project development site?) at one comment on there that said Greensboro was much larger than Winston Salem and thus deserved more skyscrapers.   City population wise they are within 40,000 of each other and MSA they are within 80,000 which seems comparable sized not one "much larger".

 

To release a very amateur "colored pencil sketch" almost 7 years after this project was announced underlines the lack of professional parties involved in the development.  Add the multiple font types/sizes, spacing issues and spelling error (not to mention non-development specific related thoughts on the home page and you actually feel embarrassed for the "developer".

 

The main reason I used the hysterical laughing smiley earlier in this thread is for remembrance of how the whole project had this unwarranted hype in the beginning as becoming a Southeast destination.  What the final rendering (to date) shows is what more level headed people seemed to be saying right for the get go of what the city of Greensboro was was more likely to support (even at that time) than the hype: some office space, a hotel and some retail (dining/entertainment and maybe some boutique shops) instead of some massive-colossus-incredible-mega-project.  The last rendering shows the former.

 

BTW - this is not picking on Greensboro (nor is it saying the city can't develop large regional draw projects) as every city experienced the hype fever of the pre-recession bust era (Trump Charlotte, anyone?) but I do think this particular project and its hype was one of the most extreme and over the top examples I ever read/witnessed.

 

Hopefully anytime a developer comes to town (any town) and says they have the mega project of the year - we all remember this thread.

[RALNATIVE]

Thank you Urbanity for pointing out the obvious. It's not so much picking on Greensboro, but if they truly want to be on a level playing field with the other major cities in NC, then they need to have the same focus on smart growth as those other cities have. Supporting pie-in-the-sky ideas that are proposed by people who clearly have very little credibility,  no experience, and lack "proven" financial backing in the commercial development arena is not good business. I seriously doubt that Charlotte nor Raleigh would have ever taken something like this seriously, but Greensboro was all over it until they were forced to be realistic about the whole thing.

 

It's hard to take a city seriously when it continues to support nonsense such as this. Again, if Greensboro wants to compete on the same playing field with the big boys, this is not the way to go.