Cap over Belk Freeway (277)

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

I’ve been walking across S Tryon bridge over 277 everyday this week and I think I’ve concluded, while yes a cap or removal of 277 would be awesome, I don’t think it will be the end of the world if we don’t get one. Would I like one or the other to happen? Yes. Will it ever happen, idk. Maybe same odds of Hornets winning a championship. 
 

Legacy Unions development is so close to 277. LU2, Honeywell, and Ally impose their presence daily on drivers. If we can get some decent height/density along Morehead (Charlotte cigar club lot(s) and everything surrounding Uptown Cabaret), including Carson station, it will be a seamless transition. 
 

Personally, I used to view 277 as a barrier into Southend, bc my perception was that Southend really didn’t “start” until you reached bland street/station. Mainly bc of all the empty lots around Carson and Morehead and the rail trail cutoff. It felt like no mans land but that is changing fast with lending tree and other development. Fill those in and bridge the rail trail over 277 and the perception will change I think. Walking across 277 is literally a block if that. If you’ve walked along any parking deck uptown, you’ve walked the distance of the bridge. 
 

 

[KJHburg]

and once a tall and I mean 350 plus high building crosses the 277 loop outside but close it will be an extension of uptown into southend.  I personally think the pedestrian bridge for the rail trail will do wonders in connecting uptown to southend and vice versa.  Maybe road diets on S Church and S College bridges widening the sidewalks would help too.  

[thenewkage95]

and once a tall and I mean 350 plus high building crosses the 277 loop outside but close it will be an extension of uptown into southend.  I personally think the pedestrian bridge for the rail trail will do wonders in connecting uptown to southend and vice versa.  Maybe road diets on S Church and S College bridges widening the sidewalks would help too.  

I’m just waiting for that one really tall (400-500 footer) to be built outside of the loop. I feel like that’ll really be a catalyst for further high-density development along the blue line. It’ll be a domino effect and will be a seamless transition from uptown to Southend. Isn’t it cheaper to build tall in Southend provided there is zoning for it?


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[KJHburg]

Just now, thenewkage95 said:

I’m just waiting for that one really tall (400-500 footer) to be built outside of the loop. I feel like that’ll really be a catalyst for further high-density development along the blue line. It’ll be a domino effect and will be a seamless transition from uptown to Southend. Isn’t it cheaper to build tall in Southend provided there is zoning for it?


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your wish maybe coming sooner than you think stay tuned.....Some enterprising developer will be doing something.       And yes on the land values.

[Cadi40]

If you know me, I’m the king of height in South End. However, I think we can all agree that what’s most important is how a building interacts with its environment on the ground levels. We don’t want to make South End a repeat of Uptown. South End is Charlotte’s second chance at creating a genuine and desirable urban neighborhood. Not that I’m saying Uptown isn’t great, It just could use some work that South End already has in place.

[thenewkage95]

If you know me, I’m the king of height in South End. However, I think we can all agree that what’s most important is how a building interacts with its environment on the ground levels. We don’t want to make South End a repeat of Uptown. South End is Charlotte’s second chance at creating a genuine and desirable urban neighborhood. Not that I’m saying Uptown isn’t great, It just could use some work that South End already has in place.

I agree. Uptown started out fairly lifeless after 5pm. No nightlife, no restaurants, no retail. Just a small, concrete destination for workers during the day. I believe South End will develop in the opposite way. It has started out with soul. Repurposed from the ground up with character, class, and life. Eventually, it will develop into a more urban and dense version of itself, and it will retain that funky character it currently has


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[NYtoCLT]

Should Belk be capped or removed?  Yes

Should it happen now if the resources would otherwise be used to acquire potential park land? No.  It is getting harder and harder for park space to be acquired and preserved but is still currently possible.  In 15-20 years? Next to impossible.  The Belk is land that is already set aside.  In an ideal world the land is used to move the Silver Line from bordering the north of uptown to instead go south and create park space/rail trail around it.  That is ~10-15 years out realistically though.

Also, for anyone doubting whether capping it would be worth it.  The Big Dig in Boston was fraught with constant cost overruns and took way longer than expected.  It is still referred to negatively when people talk about public works projects.  DESPITE THAT, it is almost definitely one of the most important things Boston has ever done and in hind sight was maybe a bargain?  You cannot walk around the North End and imagine a pre-Big Dig world anymore.  

I think removing it altogether would be ideal, but addressing it in some fashion is priority 1.  Capping versus removing? That is more of a primary debate versus general election matter.

[Crucial_Infra]

The North Tryon _skyscraper_  gap between Hearst and Odell Plaza is about 1300 feet. The gap between Legacy Union and future tall developments across 277 will be less.  This northern part of South End (cap or no cap) will definitely be considered a part of uptown even if it’s also called South End. 

Also I really wish this parcel and others could be developed as that would help the gap immensely, point being the width of the freeway is “only” ~200 feet, about half a block. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Crucial_Infra

[KJHburg]

^^ I think that parcel is owned by the NC DOT  however something could be built there if they would sell it. 

[kermit]

^^^ and I believe a portion of that parcel is the Belk Trail which connects to the rail trail at Stonewall

[NYtoCLT]

27 minutes ago, Crucial_Infra said:

The North Tryon _skyscraper_  gap between Hearst and Odell Plaza is about 1300 feet. The gap between Legacy Union and future tall developments across 277 will be less.  This northern part of South End (cap or no cap) will definitely be considered a part of uptown even if it’s also called South End. 

Also I really wish this parcel and others could be developed as that would help the gap immensely, point being the width of the freeway is “only” ~200 feet.

I think the point about the gap between Legacy Union and projects south of 277 is why the Silver Line should run across the South of Uptown (ideally removing the Belk) as opposed to the northern border of Uptown.  Stonewall is about to replace Trade as the certain of town.  If the City designed the Silver Line to be a people mover getting people to work as opposed to a hopeful catalyst for economic development in North Tryon it would be far more beneficial for the City and its growth. 

[JacksonH]

On 4/3/2019 at 1:27 PM, King of the Queen City said:

2015 was supposed to be the year where we didn’t need roads according to “Back to the Future” but unfortunately we arrived in an alternate future.  One day the Belk will be replaced by my moat filled with water pumped in from Little Sugar Creek. I would use blue font but I’m only half joking, haha.

I had missed this post from April when I made a similar comment in this thread a couple weeks ago.  Only I was not joking.  In my mind the biggest thing missing in Charlotte is some sort of significant water feature.  Water has a soothing effect on the soul that draws people to it, especially in an urban environment where people need a place to reflect and feel in touch with nature.  A lake could either take the place of John Belk Freeway or be a  cap over the freeway.  Imagine the only gap between Uptown and South End being a lake with paddle boats and ducks surrounded by walking paths and grass and park benches, and a backdrop of skyscrapers.  The entire area wouldn't have to be a lake; there could also be room for athletic fields and gardens.  It would make for a more livable environment for both work (lunch hours) and play, and a nice attraction (like the Boston Common) for visitors.

[KJHburg]

a very prominent member of this UP site was once temporarily banned for suggesting a canal in place of 277 John Belk. 

[JacksonH]

3 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

a very prominent member of this UP site was once temporarily banned for suggesting a canal in place of 277 John Belk. 

Whaaaat???  New ideas meant to improve quality of life = being banned?  Some folks in Raleigh have suggested building a canal there.  Canal, lake, it's all good in my opinion.  Ban me.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, JacksonH said:

Whaaaat???  New ideas meant to improve quality of life = being banned?  Some folks in Raleigh have suggested building a canal there.  Canal, lake, it's all good in my opinion.  Ban me.

We once were ruled by the Benito Mussolini of moderators 

[KJHburg]

16 minutes ago, JacksonH said:

Whaaaat???  New ideas meant to improve quality of life = being banned?  Some folks in Raleigh have suggested building a canal there.  Canal, lake, it's all good in my opinion.  Ban me.

I was not kidding but no one will ban anyone over a suggestion about that now.  But it did happen according to what I heard from the banned. 

[JacksonH]

1 hour ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

We once were ruled by the Benito Mussolini of moderators 

 

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I was not kidding but no one will ban anyone over a suggestion about that now.  But it did happen according to what I heard from the banned. 

I'm missing a "Wow!" icon for both of your comments.  Man, that's crazy!  It sounds like that person had some sort of complex.  I don't understand how a person like that ends up in control as a moderator.  When the moderator needs moderation there's a problem.  Any ideas with good intentions behind them should be welcomed.  And it seems from looking over this thread that others share similar ideas about a water feature here.  I know it wouldn't be cheap, and the city has many priorities, but there could be great payoff in making the city an even better place to live and work and dream.

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by JacksonH

[AuLukey]

3 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

We once were ruled by the Benito Mussolini of moderators 

My lone warning point on here came 14 years ago from that very same ray of sunshine.

 

While a linear park or waterway would be a wonderful pipe dream, Charlotte is far too car-centric to allow either half of 277 to be demolished. For the foreseeable future a short cap would be the most financially viable given we were able to sell some of the air rights to help pay for it and use a block or so for a small urban park. Reinforce the sections that air rights will be sold for obviously; but park sections wouldn’t need much more supporting structure than a standard bridge would.

[JacksonH]

33 minutes ago, AuLukey said:

My lone warning point on here came 14 years ago from that very same ray of sunshine.

 

While a linear park or waterway would be a wonderful pipe dream, Charlotte is far too car-centric to allow either half of 277 to be demolished. For the foreseeable future a short cap would be the most financially viable given we were able to sell some of the air rights to help pay for it and use a block or so for a small urban park. Reinforce the sections that air rights will be sold for obviously; but park sections wouldn’t need much more supporting structure than a standard bridge would.

I forget who made the comment or what thread it was but I remember someone talking about another car-centric city (Seattle maybe?) that shut down part of a freeway for an urban park space and it had no impact on traffic flow.  But setting that thought aside, isn't 277 deep enough to put a cap over it with a shallow lake on top of the cap?

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

We once were ruled by the Benito Mussolini of moderators 

I would love to show some of the bans from 2007-2009, but I can't see the interaction anymore.

I think this would be amazing. Fifth Street Plaza Atlanta, randomly captured by google before one very sparsely attended GT football game (as most are). Maybe the first step towards a cap:

 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[XRZ.ME]

turn 277 into moat 

[pgsinger]

I will share this link here.  While I think it is a long shot, I think removing the Belk Freeway and replacing it with the silver line underground would be ideal.  If you read the article below, Portland Oakland is looking to do a similar multi-modal underground above ground combo and add to it affordable housing and mixed use development.  I am not sure how wide the freeway is, but it seams like a light rail line can fit in there potentially with some vehicle lanes and development over the top.

@JacksonH This article also have a link to the Congress of New Urbanism's Freeways without Futures list.  That list contains a list of "Graduated Campaigns," including Seattle's removal of the Alaskan Way Viaduct.  That route was replaced with a tunnel that opened one month after the viaduct closed.  During that one month period, there was not traffic disaster, so people have drawn the conclusion that the tunnel was a waste of money.  Presumably, some research was completed to see if people just avoided that area of the city until the tunnel opened, but I do not have that info. 

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/04/urban-worst-freeway-without-future-teardown-demolition-list/584707/

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by pgsinger

[Madison Parkitect]

17 minutes ago, pgsinger said:

I will share this link here.  While I think it is a long shot, I think removing the Belk Freeway and replacing it with the silver line underground would be ideal.  If you read the article below, Portland is looking to do a similar multi-modal underground above ground combo and add to it affordable housing and mixed use development.  I am not sure how wide the freeway is, but it seams like a light rail line can fit in there potentially with some vehicle lanes and development over the top.

@JacksonH This article also have a link to the Congress of New Urbanism's Freeways without Futures list.  That list contains a list of "Graduated Campaigns," including Seattle's removal of the Alaskan Way Viaduct.  That route was replaced with a tunnel that opened one month after the viaduct closed.  During that one month period, there was not traffic disaster, so people have drawn the conclusion that the tunnel was a waste of money.  Presumably, some research was completed to see if people just avoided that area of the city until the tunnel opened, but I do not have that info. 

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/04/urban-worst-freeway-without-future-teardown-demolition-list/584707/

 

The Seattle tunnel was absolutely a waste of money and a disaster as far as construction cost and length of time. But now it's open and people are using it. During the short period of time between the Viaduct coming down and the tunnel opening people just used other streets or took transit.

[kermit]

I absolutely love it when people outside of UP (I assume) talk about how great it would be to remove the Belk!

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by kermit

[Scribe]

Both here and elsewhere, they should start with how they will fund this particular project.  If it is a local property tax, the project is stillborn!