Cap over Belk Freeway (277)

[Nick2]

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Years ago I tried walking the rail line bridge over 277. With the weekend headways I knew I had time to make it, disregarding the warning signs. The issue for me was that I was walking on ballast stones and the unevenness and rolling and shifting underfoot made it an ankle turning event awaiting. Stranded mid-bridge was not what I had considered. When I arrived at the Westin deck I was happy to return by sidewalk and never tried this again. 

The pedestrian bridge that was to accompany the rail line was cut in a budget move mid-construction. It should return.

I'm not laughing at your pain but just the circumstances of the situation. I'm imagining a sitcom cutting to the scene with a 'you might be wondering how I got here" overview being narrated with your words.

[kermit]

There is nothing complicated about removing the Belk:

 

[JacksonH]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

There is nothing complicated about removing the Belk:

 

Well yes and no.  I can understand *some* Catalan and this seems to be saying that it's been 35 years since the public campaigning that led to this point of being able to bury these roads and create the biggest "urban green lung" (whatever that is) in Europe.  Thirty-five years is a long time.  Maybe carrying out the actual project isn't so complicated, but the planning and logistics might be.  Still, this looks like a great example of how this kind of project can be done and how spectacular the results could be.

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, JacksonH said:

Well yes and no.  I can understand *some* Catalan and this seems to be saying that it's been 35 years since the public campaigning that led to this point of being able to bury these roads and create the biggest "urban green lung" (whatever that is) in Europe.  Thirty-five years is a long time.  Maybe carrying out the actual project isn't so complicated, but the planning and logistics might be.  Still, this looks like a great example of how this kind of project can be done and how spectacular the results could be.

I think they removed the highway entirely, not just put it below grade

[JacksonH]

14 hours ago, tozmervo said:

I think they removed the highway entirely, not just put it below grade

Perhaps.  I'm just translating the statement literally.  Enterrar means bury in Catalan.

[B Randy]

8 minutes ago, JacksonH said:

Perhaps.  I'm just translating the statement literally.  Enterrar means bury in Catalan.

It's a fantastic story, but a bit was "lost in translation" in the previous post.

This was a river bed that flooded often thru the heart of Valencia.  To alleviate, they rerouted the river around the city to the port.

The original idea was to insert a highway, but greater ambitions prevailed and it was instead turned into possibly the most spectacular linear park in the world.   Amazing place in person. 

This should be Scenario 1A for any Belk transformation IMO.

Here's more:  https://www.metropolismag.com/architecture/landscape/how-valencia-turned-crisis-river-into-park/

[JacksonH]

^Oh wow, I want to go see it!  Imagine Charlotte having something even close to that.

[RANYC]

3 hours ago, JacksonH said:

^Oh wow, I want to go see it!  Imagine Charlotte having something even close to that.

something of that scale requires a combo of funding sources including at the federal level, and I don't think we do anything that big, infrastructure-wise, in this country any longer.  never happen in our lifetimes.  hoping to be proven wrong.

Edited June 15, 2021 by RANYC

[Blue_Devil]

59 minutes ago, RANYC said:

something of that scale requires a combo of funding sources including at the federal level, and I don't think we do anything that big, infrastructure-wise, in this country any longer.  never happen in our lifetimes.  hoping to be proven wrong.

Yah, I would think the only way something even remotely nice is going to happen is a Cap with the city selling some land for private development. 

[KJHburg]

Lets build many more parks uptown, southend and all over the city before we spend the mega bucks on a cap park.  Lets try to catch up to Raleigh or even Cary on the greenways first.  Lets get the Rail Trail bridge done and build more mini parks in a city that really needs them like in Southend and all over town for that matter. 

[kermit]

Procrastinating today so I thought I would take a few minutes to measure the area that is consumed by the Belk (from the Independence split to 77). The Google Earth rough number is the redundant highway consumes 130 acres of uptown and Southend land.

While it seems clear that removing the Belk should not lead to the space being used for a single land use, we can produce some very rough estimates of what could be done with 130 acres of uptown / Southend land:

Land Value (based on appraisal of Levine Museum site from today's CBJ article of $7.6 million for 0.7 acres):  = $1.4 billion (corrected per buildleft below)

(I would think the contiguous space would probably get a higher price than $5.3 million / acre)  

Housing Units (at Southend Densities -- based on Camden Gallery at West / Camden, 323 units on 3.3 ac) 100 units per acre = 13,000 units (along with a bit of retail. Lots of room for much higher densities)

With decent design and a slight increase in density over Camden Gallery we could put well more than $1 billion of new property onto tax roles, add 13,000 new, transit accessible, housing units (probably around 20,000 bedrooms) green space and dedicated transit ROW. In addition we would erase the boundary which currently exists between uptown and Southend.

Why aren't we out there with sledgehammers right now?

[I would probably prefer that it be converted to Greenway / transitway and some mixed use districts, these numbers are just to give a sense of what might be possible]

Edited June 17, 2021 by kermit

[DMann]

You did that in a "few" Minutes?

 

[kermit]

17 minutes ago, DMann said:

You did that in a "few" Minutes?

 

"Time is a flat circle" when you are procrastinating.

(but, yea. Its just google earth)

[Blue_Devil]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

Procrastinating today so I thought I would take a few minutes to measure the area that is consumed by the Belk (from the Independence split to 77). The Google Earth rough number is the redundant highway consumes 130 acres of uptown and Southend land.

While it seems clear that removing the Belk should not lead to the space being used for a single land use, we can produce some very rough estimates of what could be done with 130 acres of uptown / Southend land:

Land Value (based on appraisal of Levine Museum site from today's CBJ article of $7.6 million for 0.7 acres): $5.3 million per acre = $689 million

(I would think the contiguous space would probably get a higher price than $5.3 million / acre)  

Housing Units (at Southend Densities -- based on Camden Gallery at West / Camden, 323 units on 3.3 ac) 100 units per acre = 13,000 units (along with a bit of retail)

With decent design and a slight increase in density over Camden Gallery we could put nearly $1 billion of new property onto tax roles, add 13,000 new, transit accessible, housing units (probably around 20,000 bedrooms) green space and dedicated transit ROW. In addition we would erase the boundary which currently exists between uptown and Southend.

Why aren't we out there with sledgehammers right now?

[I would probably prefer that it be converted to Greenway / transitway and some mixed use districts, these numbers are just to give a sense of what might be possible]

The interesting thing is, lets say you allocate have of the acreage to Parks, roads, retail, and maybe some commercial. Given the area, and the increasing density, you likely still have close to 13,000 units. I would imagine that strip in between South and the Stadium would all be 20+ stories. 

[buildleft]

One note: If the Levine Museum was appraised at $7.6 million for 0.7 acres, that would come out to over $10.8 million/acre, meaning the land would actually be worth over $1.4 billion. Wow

[ArchiCLT]

Article this morning in The Architect's Newspaper: "Deck parks are increasingly in vogue in the Southwest’s downtown cores, but aren’t a good fit for El Paso"

https://www.archpaper.com/2021/06/deck-park-increasingly-in-vogue-but-not-a-good-fit-for-el-paso/

[B Randy]

On 6/16/2021 at 1:34 PM, kermit said:

Procrastinating today so I thought I would take a few minutes to measure the area that is consumed by the Belk (from the Independence split to 77). The Google Earth rough number is the redundant highway consumes 130 acres of uptown and Southend land.

While it seems clear that removing the Belk should not lead to the space being used for a single land use, we can produce some very rough estimates of what could be done with 130 acres of uptown / Southend land:

Land Value (based on appraisal of Levine Museum site from today's CBJ article of $7.6 million for 0.7 acres):  = $1.4 billion (corrected per buildleft below)

(I would think the contiguous space would probably get a higher price than $5.3 million / acre)  

Housing Units (at Southend Densities -- based on Camden Gallery at West / Camden, 323 units on 3.3 ac) 100 units per acre = 13,000 units (along with a bit of retail. Lots of room for much higher densities)

With decent design and a slight increase in density over Camden Gallery we could put well more than $1 billion of new property onto tax roles, add 13,000 new, transit accessible, housing units (probably around 20,000 bedrooms) green space and dedicated transit ROW. In addition we would erase the boundary which currently exists between uptown and Southend.

Why aren't we out there with sledgehammers right now?

[I would probably prefer that it be converted to Greenway / transitway and some mixed use districts, these numbers are just to give a sense of what might be possible]

That is great - and agree on all points. 

I think of it as 1/3 open space, 1/3 development catalyst, 1/3 city identity and economic development tool.   

Oh, and it re-stitches our city together by it's very nature...

[kermit]

About that river:

 

[kermit]

Construction on the Belk River should begin q2 2022

 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

Saw some good renderings on CLT Development's IG.  Few thoughts.  This is going to be a gamechanger connecting South End to Uptown.  They will probably have to remove the trees/planters on Stonewall Station's platform for a wider path.  The little jewel retail box on the platform above Whole Foods could become something cool and sustainable due to it's location and increased foot traffic and connectivity.  My only concern and it's a big one...where do the rail trail ppl go once they hit the convention center?  Specifically bikers and such.  The trail gets really clunky at the CC and doesn't really start back up until the Hilton hotel.  I know there were limitations and it's pretty tight over there, but really wish there could have been a pathway through the convention center at the time of construction (close parameters of the Duke energy building dont make it any easier either).  

[KJHburg]

Here are the above referenced renderings of the Rail Trail bridge over 277 into uptown.

I think it is important to get southend and the Rail Trail connected to uptown.  From there people can disburse on the streets uptown S College or even over to Tryon up Hill Street.  As going through the convention center not sure about that right now but this is important to connect it to uptown and Stonewall Street. 

[videtur quam contuor]

That looks nice but you know, you KNOW there will be mesh/guards/fencing on the sides to prevent people throwing objects, including themselves onto the highway.

[Poo Diddy]

4 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

That looks nice but you know, you KNOW there will be mesh/guards/fencing on the sides to prevent people throwing objects, including themselves onto the highway.

Yup!  The recent ped bridge projects in Columbia & Winston-Salem (post bid), and Greenville, South (under design) all have 8 to 12' "screening" to prevent just that.  I'm hopeful given the design shown in the renderings the screening will be non-obtrusive on this one

Edited June 29, 2021 by Poo Diddy

[a2theb]

19 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

That looks nice but you know, you KNOW there will be mesh/guards/fencing on the sides to prevent people throwing objects, including themselves onto the highway.

I agree with you but the fact that none of the other bridges have them has me hopeful. If this has a screen I would assume one would just walk to the Tryon bridge to throw objects into 277

[JHart]

21 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Saw some good renderings on CLT Development's IG.  Few thoughts.  This is going to be a gamechanger connecting South End to Uptown.  They will probably have to remove the trees/planters on Stonewall Station's platform for a wider path.  The little jewel retail box on the platform above Whole Foods could become something cool and sustainable due to it's location and increased foot traffic and connectivity.  My only concern and it's a big one...where do the rail trail ppl go once they hit the convention center?  Specifically bikers and such.  The trail gets really clunky at the CC and doesn't really start back up until the Hilton hotel.  I know there were limitations and it's pretty tight over there, but really wish there could have been a pathway through the convention center at the time of construction (close parameters of the Duke energy building dont make it any easier either).  

This is definitely focused on pedestrians. The "rail trail" portion in Uptown is absolutely not usable by bikers. There is adequate space between stations but the route weaves between benches and the tracks in the stations and has people standing waiting for the trail all of the time.