Cary Towne Center

[Gard]

^

I think that with things going back to being more "urban," you will see suburban areas being adapted to be as urban as you can make them by adding small shopping centers adjacent to the housing developments, so you could practically walk to them. If you can't walk to it, it will be just a drive down the street or within a mile of your home. As an industry insider, I have been watching the "location less than a mile away" mantra develop. Many of the stores that cater to basic needs and necessities (drugstores in particular) have been following this for a little while now and more are taking a look at it now as well. The stores that do this may end up with more locations, but they will be near where people live, allowing people to travel less, or even walk there, as well as an opportunity to make their inventory more targeted to the demographics of the area the store operates, thus reducing inventory costs by eliminating items that people in the particular area don't generally buy. The company I work for has been experimenting with this for the past 8 months and results in the category we did this in have been incredible, with reduced selection (leading to less inventory costs) and increased sales for the category. So all in all, I think you will see little centers popping up wherever they can squeeze in, to cater to our increasingly urban tendencies.

[NCMike1981]

^ Is your statement about CTC say that maybe a mall does not need to be a mega mall to survive?

To be honest I think the reason Cary Town Center is still with us at this point is mainly b/c of the fact that it is anchored by 5 department stores....pretty much any mainstream dept store available in the Triangle area is located at this mall (aside from of course the more upscale Nordstrom/Saks)....So I think really the inline stores are sticking around b/c of this. Plus Cary has like 120,000 people now so I'm thinking that population is supporting the mall, although I've always been suprised the retail offerings in Cary have always been so typical since the town is supposedly so wealthy...

[Jones_]

I can say I go to CTC because it is relatively easy to get in and out of. It functions like a neighborhood mall and not so much a regional mall. Gard is getting at the Walgreens and CVS's of the world always being within a mile of your house. Both these examples meet practical needs for services required "on demand", and the growing sentiment that spending your life in a car to get somewhere....well...kind of sucks....kudos to CTC and local drug stores.

[StevenRocks]

CTC definitely functions as a neighborhood mall rather than a regional one. Someone driving from 50 miles away is not going to shop in Cary with Crabtree, Southpoint and Triangle Town Center in the market, but someone who drives five or ten miles probably would. North Hills and Northgate have a similar appeal.

[NCMike1981]

^^^Yeah definately it's more of a neighborhood mall, but in a time where many neighborhood malls across the country are emptying out and being replaced with power centers imo this mall is pretty much relying on the strength of having Belk, JCPenney, Sears, Dillards and Macys all as anchor stores. The layout of the mall itself seems to be a bit outdated, sorta reminds me of how Northgate was b4 they turned part of it into an outdoor area.....the hallways just seem to go on and on and on... to me this mall has been very lucky having all of those department stores still in place with all of the national department store consolidations that have occured recently.....it will be interesting to see if there is any dept store fallout in the coming year as the recession continues...

Edited December 31, 2008 by NCMike1981

[Jones_]

Northgate and CTC both had additions that distorted the original design...Northgate I believe started life as a strip center like North Hills did. As luck would have it I was near CTC last night, and my girlfriend even said she likes how CTC keeps building on its existing space like with Mimi's, as opposed to looking for places to expand outward. It reminded us also of the Friendly Center in Greensboro.

[ChiefJoJo]

Eventually, when the economy recovers and capital/credit becomes more available, I think in a growing market like the Triangle, you will see old malls and S/Cs like CTC, University Mall, Waverly Place, etc, move to a North Hills redevelopment model... that is to say change to the walkable, urban, mixed-use, "park once" lifestyle center.

[StevenRocks]

^^^Yeah definately it's more of a neighborhood mall, but in a time where many neighborhood malls across the country are emptying out and being replaced with power centers imo this mall is pretty much relying on the strength of having Belk, JCPenney, Sears, Dillards and Macys all as anchor stores. The layout of the mall itself seems to be a bit outdated, sorta reminds me of how Northgate was b4 they turned part of it into an outdoor area.....the hallways just seem to go on and on and on... to me this mall has been very lucky having all of those department stores still in place with all of the national department store consolidations that have occured recently.....it will be interesting to see if there is any dept store fallout in the coming year as the recession continues...

It was a very bad remodel that succeeded because the local retail market was so strong.

No doubt, the department store market in Cary is very healthy. The only anchors I could see closing at CTC would be Sears and Dillard's, but that's linked more to what their companies' weak financial position rather than how the Cary stores perform.

[orulz]

I agree about CTC - it is a neighborhood mall. I am not much of a shopper, but if I have the choice, I preferentially shop there over Crabtree, even though both malls are about the same distance from my home. Ease of access is one reason, and somehow CTC just seems less overwhelming.

[Euphorius]

I do think it is good that CTC is using their existing land to build outparcels. But, could the parking lots be any more confusing? It seems like each of the outparcels has it's own little parking lot that is divided from the rest of the sea of parking by little landscaped medians. When you couple that with the way people drive around there, it makes for a very unpleasant experience for me.

[Jones_]

Question: Is it possible CTC is selling offing recently created out parcels in order to generate cash or simply survive? These out parcels have been there a long time if they are just now being built out. The "my parking lot" mentality seems to say each new out-building owns its little postage stamp lot. If CTC was slow business wise (as we all seem to notice with it being easy access) then it might have had excess parking and decided to make some cash off the spaces that were not previously planned to be out parcels....? If Sears or Dillards does go under as Steven mentioned, would CTC be wise to carve up the space and continue to drift more towards a North Hills style urban lifestyle center?

[StevenRocks]

@orulz - I can see where you're coming from. Crabtree is very dense. The access routes are really choked, public transit is non-existent at best, the parking garages are really tight, and they really threw off the interior walkable distance when they added on Hecht's. I don't like Cary Towne Center much though. Ever wanted to comparison shop between Dillard's and the rest of the mall? If the weather's good, I usually go out Dillard's side door and go to Macy's or Hudson Belk outside by foot.

@Jones133 - They are trying to get more value out of the property with the outparcel sales. I expect that if Dillard's leaves, there will be a lifestyle wing built that will basically eradicate the long, uninspiring wing that leads to that store. Sears is so awkwardly placed, I can't imagine anything cool would want their space, except maybe a Macy's Home Store to fix the soft goods only problem that store has.

[Gard]

I asked someone that works for CTC and they said that the owner, CBL, is renting out the new outparcels, much like they do the inside. That will bring them new revenue over the long term and help them protect rent revenue margins, which in turn will keep rates reasonable for the other tenants.

[ncwebguy]

The N&O reported today that the store next to Mimi's is going to be an AT&T Experience store, which is probably tied to their U-verse roll out in the area. The North Hills AT&T store is similart, but has a heavier cell-phone influence.

I would have liked to see a somewhat "unified" line of stores/lifestyle center along Walnut vs. the row of "islands" it has been developed into. It has turned into an ideal-for-Cary chain restaurant row in the area -- Five Guys, Macaroni Grill, On The Border, Mimi's, Pei Wei, and two Starbucks thrown in for good measure (B&N and the drive through next ot Jarreds jewlery). Too bad Chilis *and* Applebees already had locations at Cary Parkway/Kildare Farm. They only had to sacrafice excess unused parking, the Pizza Inn, and a bank building left vacant from the First Union/Wachovia merger.

CTC has only one floor in the mall proper, which makes it feel less "constraining" than Crabtree, TTC, or Southpoint. This creates roughly half the vehicle traffic per entrance outside and foot traffic inside, and is why structured parking won't be necessary.

It is the nearest mall to West Cary, Apex, etc. and there isn't many/any parcels near an interstate on which to build a competing mall.

Beaver Creek in Apex and White Oak in Garner will subdue any need for a mall in either area for a while. Southpoint won't be that far away once 540 gets to 64, and it isn't too bad of a drive on the widened NC 55 right now.

Johnston County *seems* busy, but that is due to poor planning, putting almost all retail in the US 70 and NC 42 corridors. The factory outlets near 95 serve as a spread out mid-level department store, with Polo, Tommy Hilfiger, and other brands with outposts there. Super Wal-Mart, and White Oak at 40/70 provide plenty of shopping options. Garner's attempt at "higher than discount" shopping came and went with the Belks near the 70/401 split. Now that shopping center has a low end grocery store and is across from an abandoend Wal-Mart that decays more by the day.

Edited January 9, 2009 by ncwebguy

[JeffC]

THe phenomena of "neighborhood" malls and shopping centers going belly up and emptying out is primarily happening in areas where the demographics of the surrounding neighborhood go south which (1) takes away affluent shoppers and (2) scares away folks from outside the immediate area that might want to shop there. In our area, see as examples pretty much every shopping center along Capital Blvd south of the 401 split (which will within 10-15 years replace the ITB portion of SE Raleigh as Raleigh's ghetto), and the late great South Square mall.

No such demographic downturn is happening in the neigborhoods surround CTC...

[Brendan]

As a Cary resident, it's continues to amaze me how bad CTC is every time I shop there, which is less and less each year. Eventually they're going to have to do something. When the economy bounces back some time in the future, do you think they would de-mall like North Hills?

Having just visited Rockville, I would love to see something along the lines of Rockville Town Square. See http://www.rockvilletownsquare.com/gallery/ Just look at the two buildings leading into the district. The place has so much character. Lots of interesting stores, restaurants, apartments and condos. Now I don't know how well RTS is doing, but I would love to see something like this in Cary.

At first, I visioned something like in downtown Cary, but I seriously doubt we'll see anything new in downtown Cary. As I recent posted on Twitter, downtown Cary reminds me of grandma's living room. There's no desire to update the look from 1924. I seriously doubt much will ever change.

So where would I look next? That made me think of CTC. I can't imagine they will be able to survive as is for the next decade. Town leadership-wise, I definitely don't think anyone has the vision, leadership or desire to push something like RTS this through though.

Maybe one day we'll see something in the CTC location or perhaps on a smaller scale at Waverly Place, but it seems to me that the PTB are happy with Cary as is and have no vision beyond divided parkways to suburban neighborhoods, attractive medians, and easy access to Goodberry's. Don't we want more? I do.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Brendan

[Jones_]

With the development of the outparcels I have been wondering if there was a larger plan being formulated for CTC. If those same stores (in the mall proper) were split into two buildings with an outdoor plaza between them, and the internal roads adjusted into a grid around them and connected to the surrounding bigger roads in a couple of more spots, you'd get more of a Cameron Village feel. I am not really talking up what I envision very well, but I think its a workable site and location.

[DPK]

I always go to this mall when I want a cheap deal on higher end clothes. I've noticed that they tend to usually mark things down more than Crabtree, North Hills, or Southpoint because the customer base is thinner. Eventually this mall will have to innovate as more and more people are drawn to the growing monolith that is North Hills and nearby Crossroads.

Then what happens when Kane & Co. (or another investor) get maxed out with development at North Hills and decide to re-make South Hills into their new pet project. Granted Kane has a long time before he could max out development opportunity at North Hills since he pretty much owns the land all the way to Wake Forest Road, but still. Who knows.

Edited August 10, 2009 by DPK

[dmccall]

It would be the greatest thing to ever happen to South Hills. People might actually want to live near there.

Brendan - Thanks for the Rockville link. Are you saying that they did a full scrape of the old mall like North Hills did, or is it a new development in the mall's parking lot? Those buildings do look great. Of course if you build that in Raleigh, people would complain mercilessly. We can't even handle having Bloomsbury Estates, a much nicer building than the Rockville one. (sigh).

Edited August 11, 2009 by dmccall

[Brendan]

Here's the Wikipedia page on Rockville Mall that talks about construction of Rockville Town Center and Rockville Town Square.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockville_Mall

You're right that Raleigh would complain. RTS was so cool when my family visited in April for Spring Break. We ate and walked around at night. Many people were on the streets. Lights all in the trees. North Hills being the closest thing in this area. Would seriously love Cary to do something like that, but I wouldn't put a penny on it.

[dmccall]

I cannot believe you sent me to Wikipedia instead of answering a simple question.

[Brendan]

I cannot believe you sent me to Wikipedia instead of answering a simple question.

Why the tone?

I didn't know the history behind RTS and simply provided a fairly detailed article about it. Is clicking a link that painful?

[NCMike1981]

I recently scanned some old pics (circa Oct 2005) that I had taken, these may have been posted a while back in "picture of a picture" form but here's the actual scans:

Hudson Belk (currently just Belk):

Hechts (currently Macys):

^Is it just me or does that stoe look to be one of the smallest Macys around?

JCPenney:

Sears:

I didn't take a picture of Dillards but it's your standard cookie cutter giant arch Dillards. Here's a picture of the Triangle Town Center store just to give you an idea. They look alike but I have a feeling the Cary Towne Center store is probably smaller then this one:

[StevenRocks]

The Macy's at Cary is only 100,000 sf, which would make it the smallest in the state. It was supposed to open as a Thalhimers, and did operate as one for a year or two, but midway through construction, Thalhimers was sold by Carter Hawley Hale to May Company. The shell was already set, so May put in its own interior and didn't include home items due to the size of the store.

[DigitalSky]

But they do include home items now as a Macy's. Interesting that it is the smallest in the state.