Downtown Rockford Retail

[gvsusean]

we need national retailer DT thats it! local shops are fine and good but pfft noone is going to go all the way DT for a couple of organic made clothing and bead shops. If a urban IKEA were built, and thats the only one that we got established here, DT would become a shoppers paradise.

[GRDadof3]

Funny you mention senses/smell. Are you old enough to remember downtown Rockford with a north breeze? The Wolverine tannery occasionally made ones eyes water. Rockford has changed much for the better...but then I think downtown GR has too and I think this forum is a little hard on its progress. I remember when downtown GR was a stanky, littered, dark and gloomy industrial upchuck. The Golden Eight with its forever cracked window facing Division was the only thing to do. Patience.

[quoteme3]

Sorry quoteme3, but I have to disagree that this forum is "hard on GR's progress". The GR section of the UP forum has over 1800 topics and over 62,000 posts, 95% of which talk about nothing else than the good things happening in GR. I have catalogued over 4000 photos on my flickr site of almost nothing but developments and changes taking place in GR.

1) Downtown should be more than $100 dinners and Jager Bomb shots. The Grand Rapids metro area contains families and kids for as far as the eye can see, everywhere. I guess that entire huge demographic should just be ignored? As long as people can get drunk and hook up without any kiddies around, why mess with a good thing, right?

2) If the retail environment is tough, isn't that all the more reason to make sure the current retail experience is as good as it can be? In other words, shouldn't the properties that are operating be kept in tip-top shape to make sure that they stick around until the economic good times return? Or the vacant ones be kept attractive to catch the eye of a potential investor or tenant? That's not happening now. It's all in this thread if you want to see what sad shape parts of Monroe Center are in.

Just because something is better today than it was yesterday, does not mean it is good enough. There a lot of good things going on downtown, but retail is not one of them. When it starts affecting people's perception of downtown, keeps people away from downtown, or actually dissuades people from moving or buying downtown, then I think it's a problem.

Rockford and Holland are kicking GR's ass, plain and simple.

[gvsusean]

Sorry quoteme3, but I have to disagree that this forum is "hard on GR's progress". The GR section of the UP forum has over 1800 topics and over 62,000 posts, 95% of which talk about nothing else than the good things happening in GR. I have catalogued over 4000 photos on my flickr site of almost nothing but developments and changes taking place in GR.

1) Downtown should be more than $100 dinners and Jager Bomb shots. The Grand Rapids metro area contains families and kids for as far as the eye can see, everywhere. I guess that entire huge demographic should just be ignored? As long as people can get drunk and hook up without any kiddies around, why mess with a good thing, right?

2) If the retail environment is tough, isn't that all the more reason to make sure the current retail experience is as good as it can be? In other words, shouldn't the properties that are operating be kept in tip-top shape to make sure that they stick around until the economic good times return? Or the vacant ones be kept attractive to catch the eye of a potential investor or tenant? That's not happening now. It's all in this thread if you want to see what sad shape parts of Monroe Center are in.

Just because something is better today than it was yesterday, does not mean it is good enough. There a lot of good things going on downtown, but retail is not one of them. When it starts affecting people's perception of downtown, keeps people away from downtown, or actually dissuades people from moving or buying downtown, then I think it's a problem.

Rockford and Holland are kicking GR's ass, plain and simple.

[joeDowntown]

Oh, indeed I remember. Some days when the tannery was going at full speed, you didn't even want to be near downtown. Also, the backwaters of the damn used to be very polluted (had that irridescent look that gasoline had in water). I walked the White Pine Trails a few years back and was amazed at how much the river has bounced back. Just don't mix up the sediment.

Funny you mention senses/smell. Are you old enough to remember downtown Rockford with a north breeze? The Wolverine tannery occasionally made ones eyes water. Rockford has changed much for the better...but then I think downtown GR has too and I think this forum is a little hard on its progress. I remember when downtown GR was a stanky, littered, dark and gloomy industrial upchuck. The Golden Eight with its forever cracked window facing Division was the only thing to do. Patience.

[joeDowntown]

There was an interesting article in the GR Press (AP article) about Detroit, and how it is trying to lure retail, as well as necessities downtown. They have people that are doing nothing but calling national chains trying to drive retail downtown. Interesting, but the stigma might be hard to buck. One place they said they were trying to emulate is Baltimore, which was a tired city not too many years ago. We may want to see what Baltimore has done, as it sounds like they have added an enormous amount of retail.

[GRDadof3]

I read that Joe. Here's a link to the article. Apparently Baltimore now has 38,000 residents downtown.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/apps/pbcs....News01/70505024

There's also an article in the Business Journal this morning talking about Rockford capturing 32% more taxes, due mainly to their downtown retail boom:

http://www.grbj.com/GRBJ/ArticleArchive/20...e+Big+Gains.htm

[suydam]

I dont see how one can compare Holland or Rockford to GR (kinda sounds like those all to familiar GR/Detroit debates) Those cities are little tourist towns with their main street america feel... dont get me wrong there great places but nothing like GR. Kicking GR's ass?? How do you measure that exactly?

[Veloise]

....you need to find another urban center with 200,000ish people, nestled in a metro-area of 750,000-1.5M and see how they pull off downtown retail amidst competition from malls, lifestyle centers and also the challenges that come with big cities that frankly Holland and Rockford do not have.

...

[GRDadof3]

I dont see how one can compare Holland or Rockford to GR (kinda sounds like those all to familiar GR/Detroit debates) Those cities are little tourist towns with their main street america feel... dont get me wrong there great places but nothing like GR. Kicking GR's ass?? How do you measure that exactly?

[gvsusean]

Well if you just look at vacancy rates, Grand Rapids' downtown retail vacancy rate is between 35 - 40%, depending on where you draw the lines. Ask any commercial realtor what that kind of vacancy rate is considered (massive failure)? If Woodland Mall had a 40% vacancy rate, they'd be looking at tearing it down. I don't understand what you mean by "main street america" feel. Isn't that the goal? Or are we going for "urban gritty vagrant empty chic"? Holland's and Rockford's retail vacancy rates are probably in the single digits or maybe 10% tops. That to me spells "kicking ass". In addition, according to the Business Journal today, their tax capture is up 32%, mainly due to new downtown retail. You know, taxes, that green stuff that cities survive on?

End rant.

[GRDadof3]

1. I am def. not going for main street america feel!!! big cities are not main street america

2. its all relative 10% of 10 is only 1 (dif ball parks)

...moving on

[pr sc]

Savannah is a wonderful example. I'm just over the Savannah River (and state line). The improvement to that small city over the last 30 years is immense.

[Rizzo]

First of all, Grand Rapids is not a big city. It's just barely a mid-sized city. Secondly, Holland's 8th Street area appears to have far more retail bays than downtown GR. A much bigger task of filling and keeping full.

The Main Street program that was used by Holland has also been used by other rinky dink city organizations like:

* City of Baltimore Department of Housing and Community Development

* City of Bel Air Planning Department (Maryland)

* City of Boston Office of Business Development

* City of Chicago Planning Department

* City of Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

* City of Jacksonville, Florida

* City of Milwaukee Department of Community Development

* City of Morganton, North Carolina

* City of San Antonio Neighborhood Commercial Revitalization Program

* City of San Diego Office of Small Business Development

* City of Savannah, Georgia Development & Renewal Authority

for starters.

As I mentioned previously, if you're not interested in having a better retail environment downtown, skip past the retail threads. Please move on. But there are several of us who understand that downtown is dead between 5:30 - 7:30, and Saturdays and Sundays because there is NO retail.

[quoteme3]

Oh, indeed I remember. Some days when the tannery was going at full speed, you didn't even want to be near downtown. Also, the backwaters of the damn used to be very polluted (had that irridescent look that gasoline had in water). I walked the White Pine Trails a few years back and was amazed at how much the river has bounced back. Just don't mix up the sediment.

[GRDadof3]

.... and dont be eating any carp.

The Rogue was really abused, if you went downstream from downtown there was the paper mill. Rockford was a bona fide FFA school back then, now it reminds me more of Rochester.... yet still the downtown has few traffic lights and the tallest buildings are 2-3 story.

Why retail makes it in places and not in others is a real puzzle. You'd think a place like Cascade is a mirror image bedroom community like Rockford, yet it struggles with anything not food and beverage. One frustrated gift shop owner in the process of liquidating once told me abruptly "Cascade people dont shop in Cascade!". What? they go to Kentwood? May be true but I'm not sure why. One thing I am sure; retail is tough to make a living - its more likely that people will give it a try if it is already well established.

[suydam]

No offense to closing shop-owners in Cascade but plenty of people shop in Cascade at the giant Meijer (28th and I-96), the Costco & Target at Waterfall Shoppes, the Wal-Mart further down 28th and the strip center at the corner of 28th and Cascade Rd.

I think there's plenty of shopping in Cascade, it's just all at the big boxes.

[pcdoctor]

I wouldn't mind living in Rockford. The corner bar is my favorite place!

[ericnmu]

All my years living in GR, I've never been to Rockford, it's a shame. Thanks for the photo tour.

[wingbert]

If we could figure out the secret, maybe we could make a UP start up business out of it.

One thing I will say about Rockford and Holland (before I get beat up again), you don't just go to those places to shop. You go to shop, and to experience a "sense of place", as the term I've read and heard GR Town Planner use. It's hard to describe, but it's kind of a warm fuzzy when you are in both those areas. It's a combination of smells, sounds, interesting old architecture, sights, interesting window displays, people milling around, etc..

[Explorer55]

If we could figure out the secret, maybe we could make a UP start up business out of it.

One thing I will say about Rockford and Holland (before I get beat up again), you don't just go to those places to shop. You go to shop, and to experience a "sense of place", as the term I've read and heard GR Town Planner use. It's hard to describe, but it's kind of a warm fuzzy when you are in both those areas. It's a combination of smells, sounds, interesting old architecture, sights, interesting window displays, people milling around, etc.. I get the same feeling in some areas of Ann Arbor, in Grand Haven, and in Saugatuck. It's more of a "sense" than anything scientific (although many people try to break it down into science to try and duplicate it). I'm embarrassed to admit I felt that way in Rivertown Crossings when it first opened, but it quickly disappears. I'm sure the same will be true with the lifestyle centers. They will give you that feeling of "place-making" at first, but it will quickly fade on your 2nd or 3rd visit.

I will say this, Cascade has none of that. It has no downtown at all, with no "sense of place" really. The closest feeling you get is maybe near the corner of Cascade Rd and Thornapple River Dr, but just barely. I feel the same way about Ada, although it is getting a little better. There are "pockets", but not enough to make it a destination. It's still "quick in quick out".

[GRDadof3]

That's why I've mentioned (somewhere here in another topic or thread) the opportunity that, to me, is staring Cascade in the face but no one in the Township seems to have picked up on - the "Old" 28th Street section that has been bypassed by the 4 lane section swinging down the hill to the traffic light at Cascade Road. That could be redeveloped into a Cascade "Main Street" zone, including pedestrian amenities, much slower traffic, on-street parking, and parking lots behind or to the side of buildings. In Cascade, as with other communities, a vision is needed as well as champions, both public and private sector, who will find the ways to make it happen.

In GR, while a lot has been happening and many cities would be happy for half of the development/redevelopment in and around downtown, the "vision" of a great metro area, including more enclaves like Rockford or Gaslight Village, even, needs a big push. Who is likely to lead the charge, beyond you great folks here? Any promising up and coming "political leaders", business leaders? A consortium of folks, similar to those who have made "Pill Hill" come to life?

Also, it doesn't help the shopping for "gifts" or other more unique, boutique items when traffic is buzzing by at 40-50 miles per hour and the stores are surrounded by a sea of asphalt parking, as I usually find in Cascade. All I can figure out is that people are so happy to 1) either be leaving the madness of 28th Street and getting back to the quiet isolation of their 1/2 acre lots that they drive like maniacs through the Village or 2) they are so glad to be leaving their quiet, isolated 1/2 acre lots that they drive like maniacs thru the Village - and I grew up on one of those 1/2 acre lots!

[suydam]

In GR, while a lot has been happening and many cities would be happy for half of the development/redevelopment in and around downtown, the "vision" of a great metro area, including more enclaves like Rockford or Gaslight Village, even, needs a big push. Who is likely to lead the charge, beyond you great folks here? Any promising up and coming "political leaders", business leaders? A consortium of folks, similar to those who have made "Pill Hill" come to life?

[GRDadof3]

Suydam, I think I've found our alter ego metro area: Greenville - Mauldin - Easely, SC.

Here's why:

- CSA is about 960,000

- MSA is about 650,000 (about 100,000 short of ours, but close enough)

- Their city population is only 56,000, but only because the city incorporated boundaries are smaller than GR's. Their urbanized area is similar and density is about 2000 people/sq mi (very similar to GR's)

- They are a mid-sized city trying to stand out against powerhouse neighbors of Atlanta and Charlotte, Google Map, like our Detroit and Chicago (except Atlanta and Charlotte are growing like wildflower).

- Their downtown is more of a "boutique" downtown like GR's. A couple of nice hotels, a couple of fairly new condominium projects, several historical districts

- They have two power retail/mall areas now

- No large university downtown, but Clemson Univ. is in the greater metro, and several other smaller colleges, mainly suburban

- They are coincidentally being looked at for a massive lifestyle center/Cabela's development off of I-485.

- Their downtown Main Street (it's actually called Main Street) is more like Hollands than ours. In fact, they used the Main Street program that Holland did and won a national award in 2003.

- They suffered an economic downturn in 2002/03: BLS Jobs Data

- Even more bizarre is that the Greenville subforum is also in the top 5 busiest on UrbanPlanet.

- Big difference obviously is climate and geography (they're more mountainous), but recreation is similar. Their growth is also a little faster than GR's.

- They have a fairly new convention center and a fairly new 16,000 seat arena downtown, all minor league teams. They have a minor league ballpark that was moved from Columbia to downtown Greenville in 2006.

- They have a massive $2.4 Billion "mystery development" being proposed right now.

More links:

Population growth stats

Greenville Wiki

UrbanPlanet - Greenville

Greenville Daily Photo (great idea!)

Greenville Visitors Site

[wingbert]

- They have a massive $2.4 Billion "mystery development" being proposed right now.