Clarence E. Lightner Public Safety Center

[Jones_]

I like it too. If they really do get 'active' uses on all four side, that much the better. Morgan Street has long been abandoned from Dawson, all the way east, so anything they can do to change that in a way makes downtown bigger as far as on foot interest goes.

[Euphorius]

I have stared at the renderings for the past 2 days now. I think by proposing such a good mix of buildings the city is doing a very good thing. Maybe it will get more developers to think beyond the typical designs we have been seeing. I'm not complaining by any means though. What we have seen downtown in the past 10 years has been really great for the city on a national level. I remember when Raleigh first started showing up on the "best places to live" and such lists. There was a lot of down talking from journalists about how they could not believe Raleigh was on this list. They cited the fact that downtown was basically dead after 5 pm and how the city was more like a huge suburb. I don't think they can say that anymore. We still have a long way to go. But, we are at least going in the right direction now. I hope in the near future we can get some iconic structures.

[phoenixnc]

This actually looks really good... I just hope it can all be completed before 2027. Still though, it is better than I thought it would be, although renderings almost always look better than the finished product.

[Jones_]

Interesting crosswalk connecting across Hargett to Nash Square. The rendering predicts the completion of the Reynolds tower too, and shows us Hue finished.

[JeffC]

not to be a scrooge, but color me skeptical that this will be built as rendered...this city has a history of proposing nice things, and then downgrading them throughout the process--although the new Convention Center is a happily notable exception, and perhaps the start of a new way of doing things...

[ncwebguy]

I like the "more glass, less sand pebbles and dark brick" aspect to it all. A connection to Nash Square across the street looks nice, especially since Nash is little more than trees and various memorials (city workers, firefighters) right now.

The north face is partially blocked by Cambell Law to the north, though after the current rennovations, it probably won't be replace any time soon. And the Deomcratic HQ/Sacred Heart Cathedral on the block north of there aren't likely to be going anywhere any time soon either.

Anything to fix the dead feeling of the current deck *and* the AT&T building to the east will hopefully make the Hillsborough/Morgan at Dawson/Hue area seem part of a vibrant downtown, not one that closes when the office workers leave.

[orulz]

I wonder if the city, owning the building and all, and incorporating all this retail, might not offer some incentives (reduced rent? upfit) for some retail tenants that they sign for the building. Perhaps they could focus on filling some important needs that are lacking. You probably see where I'm going with this.

This, in sharp contrast with Seaboard, is a textbook example of a GOOD location for a grocery store. Dawson, McDowell, and Morgan all have a lot of traffic, and Hargett is no doubt destined to be one of the busier pedestrian streets downtown. With enough parking, and good signage facing in all directions, a grocery store on this block could easily survive on drive-by traffic alone. Heck, maybe they wouldn't even need incentives; just a recruiting push. It's not a big deal to me if a downtown grocery still mostly depends on drive-up traffic. Whatever it takes to get one and keep it. It just needs to have proper urban form and accomodate walk-up customers, too (like the HT in Charlotte.) There are very few grocery stores heading south towards Garner or Fuquay - it could catch commuters heading home from work. And as time goes on, it could be the anchor for a dense (high rise?) urban residential neighborhood.

[Gard]

^

IIRC there is a state non-compete law that prohibits government bodies from renting their properties out at lower than market rates. They can, however offer upfits, which is a standard thing that landlords offer. With the time frame they have for this project to be complete, I don't believe there will be no problem finding tenants, as DTR will likely be a whole different animal by that point.

[Jones_]

I wonder if the city, owning the building and all, and incorporating all this retail, might not offer some incentives (reduced rent? upfit) for some retail tenants that they sign for the building. Perhaps they could focus on filling some important needs that are lacking. You probably see where I'm going with this.

This, in sharp contrast with Seaboard, is a textbook example of a GOOD location for a grocery store. Dawson, McDowell, and Morgan all have a lot of traffic, and Hargett is no doubt destined to be one of the busier pedestrian streets downtown. With enough parking, and good signage facing in all directions, a grocery store on this block could easily survive on drive-by traffic alone. Heck, maybe they wouldn't even need incentives; just a recruiting push. It's not a big deal to me if a downtown grocery still mostly depends on drive-up traffic. Whatever it takes to get one and keep it. It just needs to have proper urban form and accomodate walk-up customers, too (like the HT in Charlotte.) There are very few grocery stores heading south towards Garner or Fuquay - it could catch commuters heading home from work. And as time goes on, it could be the anchor for a dense (high rise?) urban residential neighborhood.

Drive by customers? Orulz I am surprised . With Hue, Dawson, Park Devereux all across the street, and RBC, Quorum, Hudson, Bloomsbury and Martin Street condos all within three blocks, a grocery store here would be at the center of a decent neighborhood. I was actually eying a space on Hillsborough Street as a perfect spot, given it only sells food, and leaves shampoo and crud to CVS (later hours please) and booze to Taz. Something roughly 4 times the size of what Contis was....but I am changing topics a bit.....

[orulz]

The Site Plan for this building was submitted to the Development Services department this week. Unfortunately there is no further information that has been posted online other than just a map showing its location.

It would be interesting to know if the size, scope, or design of this project has changed in any way.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

The Site Plan for this building was submitted to the Development Services department this week. Unfortunately there is no further information that has been posted online other than just a map showing its location.

It would be interesting to know if the size, scope, or design of this project has changed in any way.

With the Wake County Court House being voted on soon...what's the latest on a last vote for this building?

[ChiefJoJo]

The site plan says 16 stories and 302k square feet on 1.6 acres. It looks like the scope has remained the same. I'm not sure if there is money budgeted for this project or not after the recession, but I would assume they would not be pursuing it if there were not a plan in place to fund it. Some interesting notes:

• they are not adding any additional parking for this building!
  
• there will be a fairly large plaza on the grand floor facing Hargett
  
• it looks like there will be some streetscaping work done to *both* sides of Hargett St (granite pavers, street trees, etc) with this project
  
• angled parking will be eliminated on the Nash Square side of Hargett and parallel parking put in its place with curb extensions, and a mid-block ped crossing
  

The big news is no parking for 245,000 additional square feet of office space (the existing police building has about 57k sf). That is exactly the type of decision the city should make going forward, especially there is likely excess capacity at the adjacent deck, when city employees get free bus passes, the building is located at a very transit-friendly location, and it's very likely that transit service will only improve in the near future.

[unique1rdu]

Images of the Public Safety Center click here

[citiboi27610]

Images of the Public Safety Center click here

Those renderings are amazing. The building looks pretty good. And, I know this is a little off topic, but its still related: Are there any plans for anything to be done to Nash Square. Are there any events (maybe related to the Municipal Building, or the Police Department) in Nash Square?

[RaleighRob]

The N&O article makes it sound like there's a possible uphill battle in council over it. Hopefully they'll get it passed...the current building is getting worse by the day from what I hear.

In regards to Nash Square, I've not heard much of it. Moore Square is the one that gets used the most and needs the most maintenance. Nash seems to be the one they try to make more like a woodsy natural area. And with all the new condos near it, that's probably a good idea.

[orulz]

Those renderings are amazing. The building looks pretty good. And, I know this is a little off topic, but its still related: Are there any plans for anything to be done to Nash Square. Are there any events (maybe related to the Municipal Building, or the Police Department) in Nash Square?

Given the choice between Nash and Moore, Moore almost always gets chosen, because Nash is surrounded on 2 sides by Dawson and McDowell (US 70/401). You can't close those two streets.

The only events I've ever seen at Nash are some road races on Sundays.

[ChiefJoJo]

I really like the design. Ah, the first big test for this council, and it comes early on. No one wants to raise taxes, but the decision should be viewed in a larger context. Where does Raleigh's tax rate stack up vs. peer cities? What's the return on the investment? How much can be saved on long term energy costs (LEED) and soliciting construction bids by building it now vs later? It will be interesting to see of Meeker can get the votes for this.

Link to N&O

[orulz]

I should think they will have no problem justifying the need for this project. But the cost may be a hard pill to swallow.

$205,000,000 for 300,000 square feet? That comes to over $680 per square foot. At first glance, that's exhorbitant. To put that in perspective, the average construction cost for an 11-20 story office building in New York City in February 2008 was $174 per square foot.

What is it that brings the cost to about 4 times that of the average office building in NYC? Well, for starters, demolition of the old structure, upfit, furnishings, IT infrastructure, the cost of moving agencies into the new building, etc, are probably (I hope...) included in the $205 million cost, but still, it seems high. What is it that this $680 per square foot number covers? Is it pre- or post- VE? Does it cover the essentials, or is spent on unnecessary gold-plated flourishes, luxurious materials, and expensive furnishings where something simpler but still durable would do? Are there some furnishings or materials from the old building that could be reused to save money? I'd like to see an itemized cost list.

[Gard]

There are some ridiculous items that have been included in the center, as pointed out by Freshman Council member (and general contractor by trade), Bonner Gaylord:

1. A two-story amphitheater -- why not just use nearby facilities that may already have this stuff? Between the city, county and state governments, I'm sure someone has a similar space nearby

2. Deluxe Executive offices complete with private bathrooms and showers -- Why on earth would you need a shower at work???

3. A cafe -- let workers patron nearby businesses. Now if they actually rent out a space for one and don't operate it themselves, thats an entirely different story.

4. A weight room -- complete nonsense

5. A roof top penthouse -- more nonsense

http://abclocal.go.c...ates&id=7151707

[RALNATIVE]

5. A roof top penthouse -- more nonsense

http://abclocal.go.c...ates&id=7151707

hey, that's my future home you're talking about!

[orulz]

3. A cafe -- let workers patron nearby businesses. Now if they actually rent out a space for one and don't operate it themselves, thats an entirely different story.

I think the plan was always to include a ground-floor retail space that would serve as a cafe. My impression was that the retail space would be rented out to a privately operated cafe. That should definitely stay IN the plans, even if it's expensive.

The 14th floor auditorium sounds neat, but what's it for? If will generate significant revenue, then maybe; if not, then forget it.

FWIW showers at the office are pretty useful. I use the showers at my office when I bike to work. But the showers are in a locker room, and used by everyone in my building. So, build a locker room. Even a pretty nice locker room. Each executive doesn't need his own private shower.

All the other things seem like excess to me. The city doesn't need to buy itself an office building that is so much nicer than all the commercial space elsewhere in town. This thing needs to be trimmed down massively or else it really will bring about a public revolt. Target $400/sf or less.

[Captain Awesome]

4. A weight room -- complete nonsense

Unless they can get employee health insurance cost savings by throwing a treadmill and some free weights in a room for a discount from their insurance provider.

Maybe less so if it is just an incentive to prospective higher skilled city employees in professional positions as a perk on top of the typically lower pay of gov't employees.

[Jones_]

One key difference is in NYC the building does not include upfit. That is normally paid for by the occupant, as Orulz alludes to. Also demo is normally broken out separately from quoted construction costs, and here we are looking at a total project cost. The Fire and Police requirements also probably exceed normal office needs.

[Justin6882]

Public Safety Center faces resistance

Nice quote from the comments section:

If these people were allowed to run our city, our public safety officials would be working out of a garage in Garner because it was cheap.

This whole thing is getting frustrating...I supposed I shouldn't be surprised.

[st8fan]

City Council voted 4-4, effectively killing the current proposal and sending everything back to square 1. 1 step forward, 100 steps back. nice