Greenhawk Transit Oriented Village in southern SouthEnd

[dubone]

The SouthEnd thread is getting very very crowded with so much going on, so this one seems big enough to warrant its own thread. There has been some discussion of various parcels included there, as well as the longstanding UP forum desire to have Iverson cross the tracks to connect to Dunavant Street.

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...mp;#entry725048

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Greenhawk has requested a rezoning for their Dunavant/Iverson/South/Remount TOD project.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Planni...ns/2007-083.htm

This project has already expanded from ~1 acre to 22 to 23 acres. This project includes a couple of under-utilized parcels on South Blvd between Iverson and Remount/Ideal, but most of the acreage is on Dunavant on the west side of the LRT tracks.

This project will include the Welder's Supply site, which is crucial for connecting Iverson from South to Dunavant across the tracks, which the city has been working with CATS to plan for over the last couple of years.

Last year, there was a plan floated to build a private Light Rail station in this area. It was almost certainly proposed by Greenhawk, and might actually be the plan still. This is a rapidly densifying area, yet is fairly far from a transit station, being half a mile from the New Bern station and half a mile from the East/West station. I'm guessing, by the fact that they are moving forward with 23+ acres in this area, that they may actually succeed in getting a transit station there. If CATS refuses a LRT station, they could reasonably build a trolley stop to extend the evening and weekend service of the trolley 1/3 of a mile south from Tremont. Another example of how they might be pushing hard for a station still is that their rezoning will plan to use 'Transit Station area principles.

This project does seem to be moving forward with a sizeable rezoning, and the building permits they received a couple months ago to tear down some of the old industrial buildings on some of the parcels.

With Iverson extended to Dunavant, this area will have a solid connected grid street network that would make it a very good place for density.

[Mobuchu]

I hadn't realized how much land they have aquired. I wonder how much adding a station after the line is already open would cost? Developers around this stop could certainly foot the bill for a large percentage of that cost. Does anyone know who owns the parcels inbetween and around Greenhawk's? Looking at the rezoning map there would be large benefits for those along South Blvd, Dunavant, Hawkins, and even on the far side of Remount.

If I remeber correctly, last year at one of the open house meetings, the concern of adding an extra stop was the total time the train would take from one end to the other, and keeping that under 30min.

[nmcheese]

I'd be concerned about the precedent that a developer-sponsored stop on the light rail would set - if that continues into the southern reaches, when there are greater distances between the stops, it could really slow down the overall system end to end time if each new project gets its own stop.

[nowensone]

^ Right, but how is this handled in cities already possessing well established lines? I'm thinking of NJ as it's lines are the only ones I am familiar with, though don't know the relevant specifics.

[nyxmike]

A half of mile isn't really that long of a walk (as long as if it is well lit). In larger cities, people walk half a mile sometimes to get to a train station.

[MZT]

I walk a half mile every day from my bus stop. No big deal.

[nowensone]

I'm sure the majority of people can walk a half mile with no trouble, but there are those that really can't, and besides, having another station here for this development would be much better than relying on existing ones a half mile away (providing it does not significantly hurt the line's travel times).

[dubone]

It isn't really a matter of precedent setting or even detracting from the schedule. At the CATS open house, they were saying that they have a target for time from end to end, but that it wouldn't be out of possibility to expect that a single stop only add a couple of minutes. It is really just a matter of trade-off on whether adding 2 minutes to the overall time would lose more customers than the new station would add. If the station is covered privately, and operational aspects are approved, and it adds a decent number of riders, and it adds significant tax value to this area, then it would seem to be a no-braine.

The precedent couldn't be set, because there wouldn't be any other locations that could possibly add a station without detracting much from the schedule. That is because this is within the slower SouthEnd/Uptown section, rather than the higher speed southern half of the line where the train goes fast between park and ride stations. This one is on the bubble (must make very strong case to be approved), but any other location couldn't possibly provide as many positive factors as a station between Remount and Iverson.

We'll see. I walk 2 miles a day, so I certainly have no problem expecting a transit area village to be built half a mile from two LRT stations. But knowing that a privately funded station was proposed, and knowing that there were strong voices of support for it in the city, I think it is reasonable to interpret from their vast collection of land in the area and station-area zoning request that they might be nearing success in getting a station planned.

[RiverwoodCLT]

In my neighborhood, it is little over 1/2 to the bus stop and some people do it every day.

[monsoon]

Developers already pay for highways to be built for their developments when more progressive governments require this in order for them to gain zoning changes. So I am not sure this is precedent setting if they demand of the developer to build a station that meets the standards (and hopefully exceeds them). I much rather see developers building transit stations than more roads such as Ikea Blvd.

Personally I see this as good news as it means that our light rail system is going to do what it is intended to do. That is to allow increased density in the city without increased traffic. One thing they have not realized in Charlotte yet, is that transit stations are very valuable retail spaces yet all of the stations designed so far completely miss this aspect of transit. Maybe the developer is swifter than the management at CATS and will build a station that is a destination, and not simply a place to board the train.

[lptk]

^totally agreed.

As long as they're paying, I'm all for them adding value to their development by providing capital investment in our transit system.

[origin.clt]

Good points. The opportunity here really is unequalled along the rail line. Through the shear amount of land available, it is possible to mend the semi-suburban and disconnected fabric of the industrial south end and really create a sense of place. Having the rail stop so closely integrated into the heart of the design, in addition to a high mix of uses is crucial to creating one of Charlotte's first truly walkable residential districts.

Speed will begin to pick up on this soon...

[monsoon]

If it is successful, it may mean more private money is available for future rail transit in this county. A century ago transit companies did not build transit lines to make money selling fares. They made the money on development around their lines. For some reason we don't seem to get this concept in the USA these days.

[pazzo83]

If it is successful, it may mean more private money is available for future rail transit in this county. A century ago transit companies did not build transit lines to make money selling fares. They made the money on development around their lines. For some reason we don't seem to get this concept in the USA these days.

[sleightofhand]

This is sorta off topic but does anyone know what is going on with the Greenhawk site?

[Charlotte_native]

This is sorta off topic but does anyone know what is going on with the Greenhawk site?

[dubone]

Their rezoning was approved just a month ago.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Planni...ns/2007-083.htm

[Andyc545]

If this station was paid for by the developer, all costs and improvements to the area, plus if they pay some portion of the track or development in the immediate 1/4 mile vicinity, lets say, of the station, that would actually help pay for the line, in the short term and long term (by adding ridership). It seems like a good idea. Again, 2 minutes extra to the train route seems to be so mild, my only concern is when does it stop? 2 min here, 2 min there, you add enough stations, the stations will all be a half mile apart and the trains won't be able to meet their 55 mph speed. That's when it's too much. Nonetheless, I welcome this project and the addition of one more station. For this line, I would only welcome an add'l station at the mall if that was the option, but I would probally say no more in between after this. From here, let's continue with the 2030 plan...

[tiger]

Is there any recent news on Greenhawk? I see that the "claw" is at work again.