Northwest Arkansas Developer Troubles

[cowbreath]

I've heard several official things lately to warrant a new topic since I didn't know where to put this. The Divinity project has been scrapped (link), Dixie Development is withdrawing itself from this area because it is "overbuilt" in their words (link), and Terminella is facing foreclosure (link). This kind of thing has been happening on a small scale for some time with many local developers turning in keys on their projects. (biased note: I'm sure all of this is like viagra to Lindsey Management).

Ben Israel of Dixie Development had an interesting synopsys of the current conditions: "With lease rates, land costs and building costs, we can

[strmchsr77]

I've heard several official things lately to warrant a new topic since I didn't know where to put this. The Divinity project has been scrapped (link), Dixie Development is withdrawing itself from this area because it is "overbuilt" in their words (link), and Terminella is facing foreclosure (link). This kind of thing has been happening on a small scale for some time with many local developers turning in keys on their projects. (biased note: I'm sure all of this is like viagra to Lindsey Management).

Ben Israel of Dixie Development had an interesting synopsys of the current conditions: "With lease rates, land costs and building costs, we can

[das450]

Do you think its a good time to try to buy some land in a subdivision owned by Terminella or a house in the neighborhood ?

Also, remember Terminella was building that project in Fayetteville off of 540 but the signs now say 400 acres for sale (earlier post).

Wow.

[das450]

Home Builder files Bankruptcy http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.as...52.19170.110395

Michael D. Curry, who formerly did business as M&L Homebuilders Inc. of Springdale, reported just $196,300 in assets.

Just under $2 million worth of the debt is tied to creditors holding unsecured claims.

[astrife]

It's now time for demand to catch back up with supply. The developers might be taking a break for awhile.

[strmchsr77]

Do you think its a good time to try to buy some land in a subdivision owned by Terminella or a house in the neighborhood ?

Also, remember Terminella was building that project in Fayetteville off of 540 but the signs now say 400 acres for sale (earlier post).

Wow.

It is almost always a good time to buy land in NWA. If had some money, I would buy some larger tracts of land and just sit on them for a few years. Then when the market changes, I would either sale or develop.

Yes, the Mountain Ranch project. I am not sure what is going on with it other than I am guessing it is not going to be as large as planned. They are still doing some of the residential portions of it. Some larger homes as well as some apartment buildings. They are going to be near the new Owl Creek Middle School.

[mcheiss]

There was the Timberstone Condo Development off College that was canceled a little while back.

Plus, the Razorback Condos were canceled well over a year ago.

[strmchsr77]

There was the Timberstone Condo Development off College that was canceled a little while back.

Plus, the Razorback Condos were canceled well over a year ago.

From what I understand the Razorback Condo deal ended because the university offered the land owner a ton of money for the land. Too good of an offer to refuse.

[Mith242]

Yeah it does seem like things are slowing down. Although I don't think you can blame everything on that. Often times you hear about all sorts of developments and they never are all done. I think it's also just the nature of the business. I see other metros that have the same thing happen to them even when there isn't a slowing economy.

[cowbreath]

I worry about these places that have these large build-out times like Southpass. I wonder what will happen if the developer abandons the project midstream. In my mind, these grandiose plans are pretty much failures if they don't get developed all of the way. If you're allowing them to create a plat and incorporate a town center, isn't this a town? I would have a hard time buying any property there unless it was all the way built out.

[masons_dad1]

After reading over this thread I realize that there's nothing surprising here. It's good to be grounded to reality once in a while and that's all this developer news does. This is rural Arkansas and the two major developments that are suffering right now don't really belong in rural Arkansas to begin with. Those two developments are condos and new-urbanist projects. We should feel very fortunate for the ones that are already completed or underway, because they may be the last ones for a very long time. Maybe it's time to start appreciating the cookie-cutter homes and faux-European strip malls popping up all over the place, because that may be all we get when the condos and new-urbanist projects dissappear.

The good news is that while new home building comes to a stop so does sprawl. Maybe the next couple years of depreciation will shock developers and even cities into realizing that higher density and infill is the only feasible direction for NWA to go.

[zman9810]

After reading over this thread I realize that there's nothing surprising here. It's good to be grounded to reality once in a while and that's all this developer news does. This is rural Arkansas and the two major developments that are suffering right now don't really belong in rural Arkansas to begin with. Those two developments are condos and new-urbanist projects. We should feel very fortunate for the ones that are already completed or underway, because they may be the last ones for a very long time. Maybe it's time to start appreciating the cookie-cutter homes and faux-European strip malls popping up all over the place, because that may be all we get when the condos and new-urbanist projects dissappear.

The good news is that while new home building comes to a stop so does sprawl. Maybe the next couple years of depreciation will shock developers and even cities into realizing that higher density and infill is the only feasible direction for NWA to go.

Just curious, when in your opinion does a US Census Bureau certified urban area become non-rural?

Here's a link to a very interesting website. I thought it fit this topic as it shows projects that were proposed and never built or are on hold. Dallas has a huge number of high-rise buildings like that over the years. I think it shows what is happening here is normal and occurs everywhere. I have spent hours looking at this site as it has a wealth of info, even though it can be a bit slow at times.

http://www.emporis.com/en/

[masons_dad1]

Just curious, when in your opinion does a US Census Bureau certified urban area become non-rural?

Even small towns have certified urban areas. I'm just pointing out the fact that the largest city in NWA isn't even half the size of most suburbs of large urban areas like Dallas. Maybe small urban areas like those in NWA should be certified as "rural urban."

As for large urban areas like Dallas suffering from the same problem of cancelled developments, I believe it's hard to compare. For every 5 cancelled developments in NWA 1 is actually getting built meaning only a few developments actually get built. In Dallas there are hundreds of cancelled developments meaning hundreds of developments actually get built.

[zman9810]

Even small towns have certified urban areas. I'm just pointing out the fact that the largest city in NWA isn't even half the size of most suburbs of large urban areas like Dallas. Maybe small urban areas like those in NWA should be certified as "rural urban."

As for large urban areas like Dallas suffering from the same problem of cancelled developments, I believe it's hard to compare. For every 5 cancelled developments in NWA 1 is actually getting built meaning only a few developments actually get built. In Dallas there are hundreds of cancelled developments meaning hundreds of developments actually get built.

Yes, you are right about the scale difference. I think DFW grows more each year than NWA is in total size. It's always a culture shock to return to NWA after being in a larger urban area for awhile. Less traffic, more greenery but less to do and see- always a trade-off.

[jcaruth]

Yes, you are right about the scale difference. I think DFW grows more each year than NWA is in total size. It's always a culture shock to return to NWA after being in a larger urban area for awhile. Less traffic, more greenery but less to do and see- always a trade-off.

I could be wrong, but I do not believe that the Dallas area grows by more than 400,000 a year....or even 100,000 for that matter.

[cocothief]

I could be wrong, but I do not believe that the Dallas area grows by more than 400,000 a year....or even 100,000 for that matter.

NO way.

The entire metro is 6 million. At a growth rate of 400k per year, it would double in size in 15 years.

I think 100k per year is pretty accurate. Of course it is spread out over 12 counties or so.

Here's an article saying it grew by nearly 200k in 2006:

http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2007/may/1...ecord-populati/

[zman9810]

My comment wasn't meant as a fact but more of the feeling I get when I visit DFW. The Uptown area of Dallas and the northern suburbs seem to be exploding with growth. At any one time there seems to be massive highway projects, huge shopping centers and tall buildings being added. Here in NWA we get excited when a 4 story building or fast food joint is added. Of course we also have less crime, congestion, pollution, etc.

[cowbreath]

Dallas definitely is a fair comparison in terms of major development issues backlogged over time in which we can learn from. However, I wouldn't think we should worry about comparing us with them as a metro because they are a major metro phenom in the US. They are Top 6 in the US and Top 50 in the world. Their housing market remains affordable (moreso than Little Rock and Tulsa) and their sprawl is contributing to that. We should probably worry about comparing us to other southern US cities who have college and corporation presence. With that being said every project we see fail in this area is going to get a birdseye editorial from us, and we should be surprised at our disappointment. Anything that will be of importance will take time and will undergo feasibility studies in some form or fashion (like marketing the project before being built to gauge interest). I think we should worry that our efforts in the city planning go towards infill and density instead of destroying our beautiful arkansas hillsides outside of our city.

[andrewjensen]

Even small towns have certified urban areas. I'm just pointing out the fact that the largest city in NWA isn't even half the size of most suburbs of large urban areas like Dallas. Maybe small urban areas like those in NWA should be certified as "rural urban."

I agree, it's hard for me to consider our area "urban" when there are still cows inside the city limits. I think part of the problem with NWA's growth is that people tried to make it something it is not. I agree that projects that don't fit the "natural" setting of this corner of the state are probably better off not going up anyway. Of course we need growth, new jobs, infill, etc., but trying to be like other cities is not what started this economic boom in the first place. Dickson Street is not special because of trendy knockoff bars like Stir and 414. It was cool because of Chesters and Georges. Northwest Arkansas is not better off for having an Olive Garden. It is for having a place like Bordinos. That's why you won't see me crying any tears over O'Charleys. It reminded me of the generic Shenanigans in that movie "Waiting ..."

I don't understand how they can blame location when they are at the corner of a big ol' commrecial development.

I traveled around the country a lot as a sports writer and I was always glad to come back to Fayetteville. I saw a lot of tall buildings, but very few views like the one coming over the hill at Greenland. Our skyline is the mountains and always will be. We should embrace that, not try to replicate Dallas' Lego-style skyscrapers.

[cocothief]

I agree, it's hard for me to consider our area "urban" when there are still cows inside the city limits. I think part of the problem with NWA's growth is that people tried to make it something it is not. I agree that projects that don't fit the "natural" setting of this corner of the state are probably better off not going up anyway. Of course we need growth, new jobs, infill, etc., but trying to be like other cities is not what started this economic boom in the first place. Dickson Street is not special because of trendy knockoff bars like Stir and 414. It was cool because of Chesters and Georges. Northwest Arkansas is not better off for having an Olive Garden. It is for having a place like Bordinos. That's why you won't see me crying any tears over O'Charleys. It reminded me of the generic Shenanigans in that movie "Waiting ..."

I don't understand how they can blame location when they are at the corner of a big ol' commrecial development.

I traveled around the country a lot as a sports writer and I was always glad to come back to Fayetteville. I saw a lot of tall buildings, but very few views like the one coming over the hill at Greenland. Our skyline is the mountains and always will be. We should embrace that, not try to replicate Dallas' Lego-style skyscrapers.

Well said.

Although Shenanigans is a rather obscure reference.

I'd say this:

The day I sit in bumper to bumper traffic on Fullbright Expressway on the way to my non-descript Joyce Blvd office park, before heading to Chatzki's or Flingers for coffee is the day I burn the building down and move to Winslow to be a pig farmer.

[jdevers]

There are cows in the city limits of Houston...also some in Atlanta.

I couldn't agree more with the chain sentiment though, I detest about 90% of restaurant chains (some aren't too bad, especially among the smaller more regional chains or at least well spread out ones).

[andrewjensen]

I'd say this:

The day I sit in bumper to bumper traffic on Fullbright Expressway on the way to my non-descript Joyce Blvd office park, before heading to Chatzki's or Flingers for coffee is the day I burn the building down and move to Winslow to be a pig farmer.

much better.

[zman9810]

Well said.

Although Shenanigans is a rather obscure reference.

I'd say this:

The day I sit in bumper to bumper traffic on Fullbright Expressway on the way to my non-descript Joyce Blvd office park, before heading to Chatzki's or Flingers for coffee is the day I burn the building down and move to Winslow to be a pig farmer.

Have you ever smelt a pig farm?

"Waiting" was hilarious. Made dining out a whole new experience.

I don't think anyone is advocating turning NWA into a DFW lookalike- it couldn't be done anyway because of the terrain and the headstart DFW has. I feel we have the best of both worlds. We live the good life here but it's a short trip to all the positive things that a larger metro offers. That said, there is still plenty of room for growth here and the addition of amenities that you find in larger ares.

[strmchsr77]

I traveled around the country a lot as a sports writer and I was always glad to come back to Fayetteville. I saw a lot of tall buildings, but very few views like the one coming over the hill at Greenland. Our skyline is the mountains and always will be. We should embrace that, not try to replicate Dallas' Lego-style skyscrapers.

What's wrong with tall buildings? I love them and hope that Fayetteville will someday support them. It does not mean we will have to look like Dallas.

[nwa_479]

I was in Dallas this one time, sort of in the suburbs, and off in a distance the sky was all lit up. Where I was it was dark. It was a pretty neat thing to see. I don't know how this fits into this topic, but I thought I'd share a little somethin somethin.