Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

SoundScan

Predators, Sounds, and the death of Downtown?

28 posts in this topic

With all the talk of various SoBro projects in limbo, and the questions of some as to how projects that were "sure things" moved to the "never happened" column, I present a statistic that is undoubtably slapping many of the present and future downtown developers in the face: with the Sounds deal dead and the VERY uncertain future of the Predators, Nashville stands to lose 113--yes 113!!--nights of professional sports events each year. That's 113 nights of ~15,000 people converging on downtown businesses. As we all know, with people come money, and where there's money there are hotels, restaurants, retail, entertainment, etc.

Whether you like professional sports or not, they can make developers' mouths salivate, and with the future of these two teams looking so bleak as of late, we may begin to see their mouths drying up rather quickly. Can we really expect some honkey-tonks and scattering of restaurants and tourist-traps to attract the type and volume of clientele needed support projects of this magnitude? I for one think not, and I believe the loss of these teams can and will put a serious dent in downtown Nashville's growth for quite some time. Am I overreacting?

-Sean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


In my opinion, the absence of professional sports in downtown Nashville would be a blow, to be sure, but in no way would spell an end to Nashville's urban renaissance. Cities all over the country who have never and currently do not have any professional sports downtown are experiencing similar 'booms', so I question how much this really has to do with it at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In my opinion, the absence of professional sports in downtown Nashville would be a blow, to be sure, but in no way would spell an end to Nashville's urban renaissance. Cities all over the country who have never and currently do not have any professional sports downtown are experiencing similar 'booms', so I question how much this really has to do with it at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Predators are really the big thing in my opinion...the Sounds have never been something that attracts people to downtown and even though it was a nice idea, I don't think it is going to prove that costly to downtown development in the future even if it has some bad effects now.

I agree that things like destination retail and continuing to develop downtown destinations (like a possible amphitheater, the symphony hall etc...) will prove to be more important than the professional sports....and coming from a sports lover, I can't believe I said that haha...

It is important to consider that Nashville continue to lobby for other sports uses at the Sommet Center like SEC basketball tournaments, NCAA basketball tournaments etc....because those bring lots of local people as well as out of towners in

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Downtown is more than just residential, there are also a multitude of hetel rooms avaialable and potentially more to come with a new center. This one element alone will drive retail and restaraunts faster than the residents will. We need ALL of thhese things to continue moving forward. Not all will get done but if even 50% do then we will grow. The new center is a key to this component IMO, second will be what happens to the Thermal site and the Predators.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Downtown is more than just residential, there are also a multitude of hetel rooms avaialable and potentially more to come with a new center. This one element alone will drive retail and restaraunts faster than the residents will. We need ALL of thhese things to continue moving forward. Not all will get done but if even 50% do then we will grow. The new center is a key to this component IMO, second will be what happens to the Thermal site and the Predators.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Producer, how does a new CC at the behind the Sommet do much for growing the neighborhood of Sobro ? I can understand how some see it as a boost in the sense that it's a big project that will draw thousands of people to the area but is it really that simple ? When budget realities eventually creep in and the laudable but somewhat unrealistic utopian vision for a mixed-use CC falls by the wayside what remains ? IMO a giant box that regularly dumps thousands of middle-aged men into lower broad looking for honky tonks and BBQ. To be sure, there will also be a smaller percentage of big spenders looking for good food, expensive wine and pretty girls but I think they'll book a short cab ride to West End, the Gulch or or the Midtown area for that.

If I sound like I'm against the CC (or lower broad), I'm definitely not. I think the CC will be great for downtown just as I think our lower broad honky tonk district is great for Nashville. But rather than expecting a transition from what that area is to something much more sophisticated I think over time we're going to see more demand for what the area is already known for: novelty shops, music bars, and the type of retail (Trailer Park Cafe's) that complements these uses. The growth of Fan Fair and even other new events geared for this kind of visitor will only make this happen faster IMO.

I think most of the upscale restaurants and retailers that many downtown urbanists are longing for will tell you that being among all of what I've described above is not in their near term or intermediate plans. And if what I'm projecting to happen happens I think not all but many of the folks that purchased in downtown to try out the lifestyle may ultimately relocate after waiting a few years and not seeing the sort of progress they were promised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^You have never heard me gripe about the need for housing, restaurants or retail that is affordable. It seems to me there is already plenty of that downtown, what it needs (to become a vibrant mixed use district) is the high end component. I agree with you that ST would help some but it has to be built first and I have contended that one of the reasons it's not likely to is that there aren't significant enough reasons for the $500/sf crowd (limited as they are) to be there in the numbers necessary to make the project work.

I think most growth tends to happen organically regardless of what the preferences are of this board, the mayor or the council. And you can only tilt at windmills so long before the powerful market forces at play will ultimately eat away at the foundations of the things we try to prop up artificially. If downtown wants to be a tourist zone then that's what it is likely to be no matter what we do (within reason) to force it to be otherwise. IMO the ultra luxury tower projects are more likely to continue their slow but steady march from Belle Meade and Green Hills to midtown and west end. Next stop...the Gulch IMO.

While the politicians and the downtown core proponents continue to offer their mixed use vision for that area developers, tenants and buyers IMO are going to continue voting with their feet and their pocketbooks for other subareas further west with more local flavor and near term promise. News about the possiblity of the Preds leaving and a new CC coming aren't going to change that IMO, but rather, will only serve to hasten it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Did not mention you specifically, just some who have made it known that they think the current price of 300+/sq. ft. is too high. What reasons would those so called "high end " residents need, they can go to dinner at Morton's or The Palm and attend the symphony or TPAC. IF they are living in the ST, they will have a very upscale Italian restaurant in the building. They can walk to the Titans games, hopefully the Preds and possibly a concert in the ampitheater. they can walk to The Frist, check out any of the new art galleries that are blooming or just kick back and go to a honky tonk. Market forces are already at play and many are trying to slow that process or are in denial that things are happening. How many more cranes does it take to make believers out of people. How many more project starts on residential, office and ancillary buildings? My wife and I have been living downtown for almost a year now and in that time the growth has been incredible. Most of the new mayoral candidates are running on a downtown agenda. I am sure that will not sit well with many. I do not think things are being artificially propped-up, they may be slowed by indecision or sometimes good policy making on the care and respect of the citizens but ultimately they will happen in some form. Tourism in the city has not stopped cities like Baltimore from having great residential and thriving sprots facilites also as a part of their downtown. We can make this happen and should be guardians but at the same time not be too conservative as to stopp the momentum of some of these projects. It is not always perfect but the overall picture is still rosy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I think you make fair points but I am unpersuaded that downtown will perform as well as the other areas that I mentioned. BTW, I certainly think reasonable people can, and do, disagreee on this. As you may have gathered, I hold fairly very strong views but I always like to hear differing opinions. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I will quit beating the horse and as always only time will tell. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I for one think not, and I believe the loss of these teams can and will put a serious dent in downtown Nashville's growth for quite some time. Am I overreacting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nobody is gone yet, and as has been stated before we need to get moving and support the team. Without our (the communities) support the team should leave. Although I am not a fan of this mayor he is not the cause of this problem, we the citizens are but we can rectify it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I for one would rather see Sobro and the greater downtown area shift to a neighborhood than a tourist destination. Some of the most fun neighborhoods in the world have no distinct tourist attraction. I think a new CC would completely destroy the possibility of a neighborhood feel in Sobro. Slow and steady growth, like the growth that is happening in Germantown and it's surrounding areas will create an incredible feel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Count me with you. Your figures are the sole reason why there has been interest in that particular are of DT. Now that they are in jeopardy, you will (surely) see willing developers move on to greener pastures. Your mayor apparently does not understand this basic reality.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Whether you like professional sports or not, they can make developers' mouths salivate, and with the future of these two teams looking so bleak as of late, we may begin to see their mouths drying up rather quickly. Can we really expect some honkey-tonks and scattering of restaurants and tourist-traps to attract the type and volume of clientele needed support projects of this magnitude? I for one think not, and I believe the loss of these teams can and will put a serious dent in downtown Nashville's growth for quite some time. Am I overreacting?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to see the new Convention Center where PCS metals is now. I would hope Sobro stayed residential and full of retail and restaurants, unfortunately most Nashvillians do not want to leave the suburbs. There is still a lot of fear about downtown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The loss of sports teams will be a blow, but I think the future of downtown Nashville lies with the river, Church Street, the intersection of 2nd Avenue and Broadway, and a large amount of civic beauty that does not yet exist, but is hinted at very profoundly by the Schermerhorn, the Public Square, and the few pre-war classical buildings that have not been demolished.

The loss of an ice hockey team would hurt any city that had ice hockey fans, but this sort of trophy amenity hemorraging is like leprosy--it is only contracted by the malnourished, and only life-threatening to those who already dying.

We can get another hockey team. We can't get another river.

The loss of the Predators would be a lot more damaging if the players all lived downtown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^This is all part of the risk in trying to prop up residential or retail in places where intrinsic demand isn't apparent. You can only subsidize it so long (I think the HG Hill's free rent lasts 2 more years) but eventually market forces are going to prevail. And whether it's a hockey team or an urban market, you can't organize a pep rally every time one of these components begin to teeter. You may delay the enevitable for a year or two but that's about it.

At some point the city has to consider whether it is throwing good money after bad and consider other initiatives that will provide more return on the taxpayers investment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeeper you call it propping something up, I call it pushing the rock up the hill. Your way means it is not going to last, mine means we are working towrds a goal. Again only time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jeeper you call it propping something up, I call it pushing the rock up the hill. Your way means it is not going to last, mine means we are working towrds a goal. Again only time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally think that the tiltle of this thread is way too defeatist about the Predators prospects. There is a better than a 50 - 50 chance the team will stay in Nashville, IMO. All is not lost....at least not yet. Look for the business community to finally step up to the plate and support the Predators in a big way. It will be difficult for for the new owner (assuming the deal doesn't fall through) to move this team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I personally think that the tiltle of this thread is way too defeatist about the Predators prospects. There is a better than a 50 - 50 chance the team will stay in Nashville, IMO. All is not lost....at least not yet. Look for the business community to finally step up to the plate and support the Predators in a big way. It will be difficult for for the new owner (assuming the deal doesn't fall through) to move this team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I personally think that the tiltle of this thread is way too defeatist about the Predators prospects. There is a better than a 50 - 50 chance the team will stay in Nashville, IMO. All is not lost....at least not yet. Look for the business community to finally step up to the plate and support the Predators in a big way. It will be difficult for for the new owner (assuming the deal doesn't fall through) to move this team.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am going to diasgree with your thoughts on Balsille. I think he wants to win now, but can't keep his mouth or actions quiet long enough to get the things done that he want to. I think he will never close on this deal as the NHL is already backing him nto a corner. He is not on the agenda today at the last scheduled Board of Governers meeting and his MOU with Liepold only runs until the 30th. I am sure they can extend it, but IMO the chance that the NHL votes in favor of him moving the franchise now is slim to none and that will not please him at all.

P.S. under the status quo we probably would not have resigned either Kimmo or Hartnell as they are demanding (and getting) more money than they are worth. We have talent that is capable of filling those holes and hopefully we can sign a few free agents for this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.