Jump to content

The Dash Downtown Ballpark

cityboi

By cityboi
in The NC Triad

Recommended Posts

wagwa2001l Unincorporated Area

wagwa2001l

Posted
Posted

I agree with you on that...

However, this is really not that situaton...

In all... city forks over 26 million.. gets what... 11 from WFU... to develop increase the tax base off that area by a huge amount. The tax breaks don't cover condos or offices... those will all pay taxes... and eventuially all of it will pay taxes in the long term. (those condos retail and offfieces are worth a lot more than the stadium tax wise)

I just think that this is not even a typical stadium deal or typical corporate charity project (Dell was definetly one of those).. the project is one where all the numbers say the cith will make $. Even the doomsday assessments show that it will break even. Its not giving $ to anyone if its not costing you anything.

Eitherway, In todays age... you either pay or it dosen't get done. Dell has done almost everything it said it would and it is nowhere near the 3 years that was suggested it would take. Of course people complained abut that. Charlotte failed to build for the Hornets... now playing in NO and ended up building anyway just to get a team back.

Winston is a city that is coming along.. but now is not the time to stop investing... even in private projects... this city has a lot of years of anti-growth policies to make up for. I graduated school at Wake and definetly kow that many of those who ended up in Winston Jobs left soon after, unhappy with the city for its lack of a young professional group. The sudies support that assessment. And industry will not move or stay where there are no qualified young people to work there.

So Winston must now pay the piper for, in my opinion, long running polices that just about ran young people away. (remeber 5 years ago when sidewalk dining was illegal, lol.. look at 4th street now). If this city can get young people and industry again than these projects pay off big time... look 6 years back and try to find one positive article or assessment about winston's economic possibilities... sorry for taxpayes... including myself... but if this city doesn't invest it will die and then all us tax payers can pay the lower rates to live in a old run down city that has low property values and thus low taxes and can't afford its own repairs.

whether corporate charity etc. is "right" doesn't matter... you either play (pay) or you fall behind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 413
  • Created
  • Last Reply
triadguy37 Whistle-Stop

triadguy37

Posted
Posted

I agree with you on that...

However, this is really not that situaton...

In all... city forks over 26 million.. gets what... 11 from WFU... to develop increase the tax base off that area by a huge amount. The tax breaks don't cover condos or offices... those will all pay taxes... and eventuially all of it will pay taxes in the long term. (those condos retail and offfieces are worth a lot more than the stadium tax wise)

I just think that this is not even a typical stadium deal or typical corporate charity project (Dell was definetly one of those).. the project is one where all the numbers say the cith will make $. Even the doomsday assessments show that it will break even. Its not giving $ to anyone if its not costing you anything.

Eitherway, In todays age... you either pay or it dosen't get done. Dell has done almost everything it said it would and it is nowhere near the 3 years that was suggested it would take. Of course people complained abut that. Charlotte failed to build for the Hornets... now playing in NO and ended up building anyway just to get a team back.

Winston is a city that is coming along.. but now is not the time to stop investing... even in private projects... this city has a lot of years of anti-growth policies to make up for. I graduated school at Wake and definetly kow that many of those who ended up in Winston Jobs left soon after, unhappy with the city for its lack of a young professional group. The sudies support that assessment. And industry will not move or stay where there are no qualified young people to work there.

So Winston must now pay the piper for, in my opinion, long running polices that just about ran young people away. (remeber 5 years ago when sidewalk dining was illegal, lol.. look at 4th street now). If this city can get young people and industry again than these projects pay off big time... look 6 years back and try to find one positive article or assessment about winston's economic possibilities... sorry for taxpayes... including myself... but if this city doesn't invest it will die and then all us tax payers can pay the lower rates to live in a old run down city that has low property values and thus low taxes and can't afford its own repairs.

whether corporate charity etc. is "right" doesn't matter... you either play (pay) or you fall behind.

Very well said. I agree 100 percent and those who don't like it, can just move to one of those old run down cities. It is time Winston steps up to plate and moves forward. I am sick of these people who want to argue with progress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
otherstream Whistle-Stop

otherstream

Posted
Posted

Very well said. I agree 100 percent and those who don't like it, can just move to one of those old run down cities. It is time Winston steps up to plate and moves forward. I am sick of these people who want to argue with progress.

A significant number of people (that pesky majority of voters in most cities who almost universally vote down stadium and arena proposals, for example) might disagree with your definition of "progress". Which is the better definition: (1) tear down everything we don't like this week, or (2) dole out lots of corporate welfare, or (3) support glitzy, grand schemes rammed through with minimal public input? It would be helpful to know the party line so we can figure out which of us are supposed to move and which of us are allowed to stay here. <_<

Rhetorical question: if the stadium is such a guaranteed moneymaker, why aren't any speculators or developers rushing in to build it themselves and grab all this easy profit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
wagwa2001l Unincorporated Area

wagwa2001l

Posted
Posted

Progress is Progress.. look at the area now and then look at what it could be... not progress, are you kidding. to some extent who cares how it gets done.. it needs doing. Stadioum proposals are not generally voted down... generally they have passed with a few notable exceptions... charlotte for insatnce... which no has a downtown arena I might add. Greensboro passed despite poorly informed and ver vocal opposition.

if it sucks... who cares if it is torn down (with the exceptioin of things with some historical value) there is nothing to be gained by keeping crap for the sake of keeping it.

was Dell a bad thing... definetly corporate welfare... largest case ever... very little public input... was it bad? it has done everything it said it would.

investors are not the same as those (the cith) who get the tax revenues. For a project like this a private investor has to put his own money in... run his own property's tax value up... then pay those higher taxes.

government... helps finances the private investor and then reaps the benefit of the increase in taxes.. private investor's do not get tax revenue.. they pay taxes...

If we are so worried about taxes then here is something that will piss you off... why is no part of baptist medical center taxed... (the answer is because its non-profit) is it really non-profit? aside from that.. just because it is a hospital... does that mean that revenues made from and the property that is say a parking deck in the area shouldn't be taxed? It is not curently. So we have a non-profit parking deck sittng on land with a huge tax value that makes money every year and hasn't paid a penny of property tax for years?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JerseyBoy Burg

JerseyBoy

Posted
Posted

Progress is Progress.. look at the area now and then look at what it could be... not progress, are you kidding. to some extent who cares how it gets done.. it needs doing.

if it sucks... who cares if it is torn down (with the exceptioin of things with some historical value) there is nothing to be gained by keeping crap for the sake of keeping it.

Well to put it in a different perspective, how would you feel if somebody kicked you out of your house and bulldozed over what you had probably worked a lifetime to own? Not that many residents in this area own their houses but some do. Yes, this is a crime ridden area with drugs/prostitution/gangs but it's still where some decent people live who can't afford anything else. You know, before I started going to the ballpark meetings I felt the same way that it was crap and that nobody would ever miss it. I was wrong, personally I wouldn't trust Billy Prim with my life as he seemed to want to bypass the needs of the citizens and get to what he wants....money. The only member of this whole development who seemed to care about the people was the Mayor, and it wasn't fake caring either. During the meeting a lady who helps clean the church had a diabetic attack and you saw HARDLY any of the people who were there for the money (developers, architects, etc.) go and help her, the mayor was the only one that did with a few additional people like the police chief of that area and the financial advisors. The others were just standing around talking to amongst themselves. That in itself shows they care only about themselves and are looking for a quick-buck. I want the ballpark to happen but I want it done right (material wise and ethically).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
wagwa2001l Unincorporated Area

wagwa2001l

Posted
Posted

I guess you missed the fact that no one is being forced to sell. There is no government "taking" this property it is all people selling voluntarily. The only people being "forced out" are renters who will have to move as their landlord sold the property. The case you are speaking of, long term owner forced out, dosen't exist. Please get informed before writing.

A landlord can kick a renter out in NC for any reason at all at the end of a lease... in the vast majority of situations (month by month) a landlord can end a lease within 10 days. even for a year lease the landlord can legally terminate with 6 weeks notice. For Prim, (who you say dosen't care) to offer even $800 to people in the area who, legally, could be removed within a month without receiving any moving expense.... seems like a very nice thing to do. FOr you to say otherwise is irresponsible and inflamatory.

Also, please refrain from personal attacks which are unfounded. The worst thing to do is for everyone to rush to help. If you don't know how to help... please step back and remain in your seat and let those who do know how to help do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JerseyBoy Burg

JerseyBoy

Posted
Posted

I guess you missed the fact that no one is being forced to sell. There is no government "taking" this property it is all people selling voluntarily. The only people being "forced out" are renters who will have to move as their landlord sold the property. The case you are speaking of, long term owner forced out, dosen't exist. Please get informed before writing.

A landlord can kick a renter out in NC for any reason at all at the end of a lease... in the vast majority of situations (month by month) a landlord can end a lease within 10 days. even for a year lease the landlord can legally terminate with 6 weeks notice. For Prim, (who you say dosen't care) to offer even $800 to people in the area who, legally, could be removed within a month without receiving any moving expense.... seems like a very nice thing to do. FOr you to say otherwise is irresponsible and inflamatory.

Also, please refrain from personal attacks which are unfounded. The worst thing to do is for everyone to rush to help. If you don't know how to help... please step back and remain in your seat and let those who do know how to help do it.

I wasn't implying a personal attack to you directly, I was just trying to show you the "other side" of the development in question. You don't have to tell me what's wrong and what's right, trust me I know. <_< Why don't you try going to the meetings and listening to what these people say? :) And about the diabetic women, ok if you don't know what to do yes step back but when the women is drops on the ground DIRECTLY in front of you and you continue talking, then yes I see somebody who thinks of themself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
suburban george3 Town

suburban george3

Posted
Posted

Are there any plans for some of the new condos to set aside affordable housing for lower income persons? I am concerned that many of the plans for the center city will mean that only the affluent can live there.

I don't think that's been on anyone's radar. However, with the redevelopment of the Affordable Housing Projects, there should be housing available relatively close to downtown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
wagwa2001l Unincorporated Area

wagwa2001l

Posted
Posted

I don't think that's been on anyone's radar. However, with the redevelopment of the Affordable Housing Projects, there should be housing available relatively close to downtown.

As far as new development Happy Hill redo is the closest. abut 1.5 miles from center city. However, ther is still a lot of affocrdable housing in downtown. The diffrence is a few years ago there was no housing for the affluent at all downtown. Now there is. The whold of the baseball project replaces jsut few dozen houses, many of which are abandonded.

most of the projects don;t replace affordable housing at all... for insatance

West end village - 0 affordable housig units lost - car dealership

holly place - open filed

traders row - 0 runsoen retail spaces with unused and in come cases condemmed upstairs

one park vista - 0 (unused davis dept store)

nissen building - 0 (abandonded office building

most of the other big condo projects are going in open spaces or unused werhouses...

I really don;t see affordable housing being tun out of downtown... only the broadening of the people living there to include affluent as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jones_ City

Jones_

Posted
Posted

I am not familiar with the area at all, but the form and approach seem very wrong to me. The houses being demolished don't look to be historic but generally residents make a city thrive not destination objects like stadiums. Maybe this part of town is so run down that the only quick fix for economic vitality is this route. Another route could have been code enforcement inspections, necessary condemnations, and redevelopment of the area as a dense residential area, though I don't know the demand in WS for such things. In general removal of downtown streets is a poor choice as well. This development does not look to be pedestrian friendly and is very car-centric destination only habitation.

This argument went on in the triangle forum about whether or not the RBC Center should have been located downtown. Are the benefits of iconic destinations greater than the reduction in pedestrian scale, livable portions of a finite downtown? What is the purpose of a downtown as the showpiece of a City? I have never loved downtown stadiums when it involves destroying established or historic areas. Newly built up areas that are awash in highrise buildings and other destination sites like Auditoriums, Museums and the like offer less contrast and hence can handle a neighbor like a stadium better imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
wagwa2001l Unincorporated Area

wagwa2001l

Posted
Posted

I am not familiar with the area at all, but the form and approach seem very wrong to me. The houses being demolished don't look to be historic but generally residents make a city thrive not destination objects like stadiums. Maybe this part of town is so run down that the only quick fix for economic vitality is this route. Another route could have been code enforcement inspections, necessary condemnations, and redevelopment of the area as a dense residential area, though I don't know the demand in WS for such things. In general removal of downtown streets is a poor choice as well. This development does not look to be pedestrian friendly and is very car-centric destination only habitation.

This argument went on in the triangle forum about whether or not the RBC Center should have been located downtown. Are the benefits of iconic destinations greater than the reduction in pedestrian scale, livable portions of a finite downtown? What is the purpose of a downtown as the showpiece of a City? I have never loved downtown stadiums when it involves destroying established or historic areas. Newly built up areas that are awash in highrise buildings and other destination sites like Auditoriums, Museums and the like offer less contrast and hence can handle a neighbor like a stadium better imo.

Ther areas near downtown worth saving are saved... Holly Ave. Historic District is largely untouched except for fill in projects... West End... untouched...

this one area is not big... only has a few dozen single family homes... some of which have less that 500 sq. rft of interior space.... which are mostly run down... overall your talking about moving out 20 some people and moving replacing the very sparsly developed and very run down and crime infested area with a high density area...

In all truth this area is not downtown... its really just outside of it... this is rally winston expanding the downtown area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
suburban george3 Town

suburban george3

Posted
Posted

In all truth this area is not downtown... its really just outside of it... this is rally winston expanding the downtown area.

City council has decided to add this area to the downtown development "area" regardless if the stadium gets built or not. They have decided getting this area redeveloped needs to be a higher priority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
mikeyhy Crossroads

mikeyhy

Posted
Posted

My friend Joe asked me to post this, and ask any supporters of the development to be sure to show your support at the vote this evening. Thanks!

My name is Joe Bellissimo I am the project manager for Brookstown Development, Developers of the Downtown Baseball Stadium & Mixed Use project. I stumbled upon this forum and I am really glad I did. I read the comments posted and was impressed with some of the wonderful ideas. Our goal has always been to change the Downtown Winston Salem and the entire City for the better. You can trust that we understand the project must be done right and the development must be functional and pedestrian friendly. We envision a place that families can come and spend quality time together, in a safe environment. By creating a destination downtown with amenities and affordable entertainment for all, we will be exposing how cool downtown really is, not only to current citizens, but to visitors as well. This project is big enough to have the impact the City has been longing for. I can
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cityboi Metropolitan Area

cityboi

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Im all for this project. as long as the people who live on the proposed site today are taken care of. Winston-Salem is luckier than most cities not to have so much resistance to the project. I think that is because most everyone agrees that his will be very benifical for downtown. Even in Greensboro, the resistance may have been small but they were loud. In Greensboro's case it had nothing to do with how it was funded but the nostalgia of the old War Memorial Stadium. In Winston's case, Wake Forest stepped up to the plate to buy Erie Shore Field. without that purchase, a downtown ballpark in Winston wouldnt become reality. This ballpark project also expands the downtown boundaries which is another plus for the Twin City. When the new stadium opens, the attendance WILL shoot up dramatically. I wish Greensboro and Winston were in the same league though. Id love a little friendly competition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
suburban george3 Town

suburban george3

Posted
Posted

forsyth county is offering less than what Prim asked for...only $4 mil - $6 mil. i wonder how this will play out?

From reading some articles as of late, it sounded like this was almost expected by the "experts." Nobody seemed to think it would be a show-stopper. There are restrictions that the country board has to contend with on giving money to a project like this that would come into play.

Let's hope it still goes thru..

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
suburban george3 Town

suburban george3

Posted
Posted

The county's offer is in, and it is $3 million dollars short of what's being asked. There has been no comment from Primm as of yet. Could this be a deal breaker? It sounds as if the county is supportive of the project and wants to make it happen, but they do have a differing set of guidelines they must follow so whatever they give isn't challenged in courts. Negotiations continue...

I hope this doesn't stop this from happening... :unsure:

WSJ article about Forsyth Co. Commisioner's offer for downtown ballpark incentives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.