Granby Tower

[spiker3]

One would think that if this project was dead, they would have a press conference and admit it!

But since they are still hanging in there and have not announced anything, there is no other

thing to do is wait and see what happens. I'm still being optimistic!

The only way a press conference would be called to announce the death of this project would be if the Virginian Pilot caught wind of it first and forced Gaddams hand. At this stage a voluntary call off seems highly unlikely, he has far too much to lose.

[Image5]

Virginian Pilot waited to publish this until now...

Subcontractors working on Granby Tower have filed $1.38 million in liens against the project in the past two weeks.

Suburban Grading & Utilities Inc. filed liens totaling $831,221.09 against 515 Granby LLC, listed as the owner of the property and the proposed luxury condominium tower at Granby Street and Brambleton Avenue. The liens, filed Dec. 17 in Norfolk Circuit Court, seek payment for demolition and site clearing and other site preparation work.

Another lien, filed Dec. 14, claims $549,383.90. Atlantic Metrocast Inc., the Portsmouth company that supplied the concrete pilings for the project

[vdogg]

Can you post a link please? I can't find this article.

[vdogg]

I think the contractors are just jumping on the bandwagon now. One of them jumped ship and asked for money, now the others are afraid if they don't file liens it'll get to a point where they can't recover their money. This is a sad situation to see happening, Norfolk deserves better than this. I'm really trying to hope for the best on this, but man is this thing getting ugly. Hopefully none of the prospective buyers follow suit.

[Image5]

Can you post a link please? I can't find this article.

http://hamptonroads.com/2007/12/subcontrac...y-tower-project

Part of the online edition.

[RJWGMU]

I just saw that story reported on 13 News. Sorry yall, but this thing is dead dead dead...

[Image5]

I think the contractors are just jumping on the bandwagon now. One of them jumped ship and asked for money, now the others are afraid if they don't file liens it'll get to a point where they can't recover their money. This is a sad situation to see happening, Norfolk deserves better than this. I'm really trying to hope for the best on this, but man is this thing getting ugly. Hopefully none of the prospective buyers follow suit.

"Don't cry for me Argentina",

The last I heard, Westin, Studio 56, Harbor Tower, and Rotunda all have availability (as does the smaller Marathon project on Colonial and a number of other converted Ghent condos that are not selling even with lowered prices). They are all essentially complete. Quality rental is in shorter supply and a couple of projects have already changed course to that.

Ford is gone and the ancillary businesses need to reinvent themselves or be hurt. A very significant downtown publishing employer is in layoffs. Banking is a traditionally downtown employer, but it is certainly not that healthy today. Service people simply cannot afford the Norfolk and Town Center market. Trader-uppers aren't getting great dollar, overall, and are staying put. The wealthy, however, are still doing just fine. There just aren't that many coming into town, and the trader-downers aren't getting top dollar for what they no longer need. Plus, Eastern North Carolina is offering great new lifestyle developments for half the price.

The few indicators I understand don't suggest Granby Tower and its ilk are the good investments today (duh). Aw shucks. I just never feel too sorry for real estate gamblers.

[vdogg]

Whoa! Don't go all Tel on me now. The sky is not falling. This is one project and real estate as you know is cyclical. Westin is 85% sold, Studio 56 has 35 of its (of course) 56 units sold. Sold out? No. Disaster? Hardly. There are still developers trying to get into this market such as the plans near Harbor Park and The Landing in Virginia Beach. All one needs is a qualified developer with business sense to pull something like this off. Buddy was simply out of his depth. No need to make things seem worse than they are.

[vdogg]

I just saw that story reported on 13 News. Sorry yall, but this thing is dead dead dead...

What else did they say in the report that wasn't in the article?

[Image5]

Whoa! Don't go all Tel on me now. The sky is not falling. This is one project and real estate as you know is cyclical. Westin is 85% sold, Studio 56 has 35 of its (of course) 56 units sold. Sold out? No. Disaster? Hardly. There are still developers trying to get into this market such as the plans near Harbor Park and The Landing in Virginia Beach. All one needs is a qualified developer with business sense to pull something like this off. Buddy was simply out of his depth. No need to make things seem worse than they are.

Facts, plus my OWN conclusion based on those few facts and my own limited background. I wouldn't know if the sky was falling, though if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck......

[vdogg]

Stories been updated:

Officials for both Suburban Grading and Atlantic Metrocast said they filed the liens now because they had reached the legal time limit for seeking payment for work performed or materials delivered. State law requires contractors to file liens against those that owe them money within 90 days from the last day of the month during which the latest amount of labor or materials was supplied, said Jack Rephan, attorney for Suburban Grading.

Larry Hazelwood, vice president of Norfolk-based Suburban Grading, said he remains confident about the project and in Gadams, and that the liens represent a formality for his company.

"I know he's got a great plan. He's got a great vision. He's got a great building to build," Hazelwood said, adding that he hopes new financial backers will step forward to help fulfill that vision. "But it doesn't happen overnight."

[Telmnstr]

Whoa! Don't go all Tel on me now. The sky is not falling. This is one project and real estate as you know is cyclical. Westin is 85% sold, Studio 56 has 35 of its (of course) 56 units sold. Sold out? No. Disaster? Hardly. There are still developers trying to get into this market such as the plans near Harbor Park and The Landing in Virginia Beach. All one needs is a qualified developer with business sense to pull something like this off. Buddy was simply out of his depth. No need to make things seem worse than they are.

I know I've been beating a drum, but I have to say prices just don't make sense. It's all been a massive fraud, but has left behind some nice diggs that will hopefully last.

Seriously, do you know that many people that have that much money that are willing to blow it on a condo?

Housing is conventionally 3 times yearly salary, or 100 times rent. So when you have condos that rent for $1200 (100 * 1200 = $120,000) that cost $400,000 to buy, that is stupid. Housing is generally cheaper than renting because of upkeep costs and the risks of getting stuck with a declining investment. But everyone forgot this in a mania.

I've got a number of friends that make good six figures. One may move back to Hampton Roads (after getting paid in Silicon Valley). He ain't going to be looking for no condo, and the lower cost of housing and better jobs in Raleigh is clouding the issue. Gov't contractors really aren't much fun to work for compared to other companies.

I know a good number of people in Hampton Roads in the tech industry (seriously), and some of the gov't contractors don't do so well in retaining talent. Some of the so called precious great places have the most screwed up networks and often clueless people running them, it drives _AWAY_ the good guys. Sad to say, but if your good you don't want to be held back or have to fight with a bunch of clown shoes all day.

*Shrug*

Think of it this way though. Falling home prices, empty condos, and a return to sanity in home prices is a GOOD thing. People can have savings, save for retirement versus depending on the future sale of their home for all retirement money, and perhaps stop living off of debt.

[Telmnstr]

The last I heard, Westin, Studio 56, Harbor Tower, and Rotunda all have availability (as does the smaller Marathon project on Colonial and a number of other converted Ghent condos that are not selling even with lowered prices). They are all essentially complete. Quality rental is in shorter supply and a couple of projects have already changed course to that.

Don't know about the sales, I know the Barr project in DT Norfolk has supposedly only moved one unit to a relative or something. I know some of the Ghent condo conversions (apartments to condos) looked like they were 40% profit or more using city property value on the apartment building and the asking sales prices of condos after the granite was slapped in.

I also know that there are tons of rentals. Friends who have a few extra houses say the rents are going up, but the company I rent from pretty much has record vacancies, and I can look on craigslist and find much better deals. Lots of the homes for sale have these "make offer" notices, and a tons of lies about instant equity and what not (realtor speak...). A good number seem to say "for sale" or "for rent".... aka, desperate. And there is still 1 million or more houses to hit foreclosure, and more than $1 trillion in home values to be lost. I'm working with a friend on code to count the foreclosures listed in the paper daily, and maybe dig up the previous and new sale prices of them.

Ford is gone and the ancillary businesses need to reinvent themselves or be hurt. A very significant downtown publishing employer is in layoffs. Banking is a traditionally downtown employer, but it is certainly not that healthy today. Service people simply cannot afford the Norfolk and Town Center market. Trader-uppers aren't getting great dollar, overall, and are staying put. The wealthy, however, are still doing just fine. There just aren't that many coming into town, and the trader-downers aren't getting top dollar for what they no longer need. Plus, Eastern North Carolina is offering great new lifestyle developments for half the price.

Got a friend who was ex-Ford. Said he topped out @ over $150K one year in salary, but now it's gone. Said lots of line workers that made $70K+ are pretty much never going to get the kind of income again. A good number seemed to have moved. Friend will do okay.

The wealthy always do fine in the downturns. It's the proles that suffer. The faux middle-class will too. The commute from NC to VA is split, I know a few that make the trip and like, some hated it. When I worked for a tech company in downtown Norfolk we had a coworker who was one of the programmers (came from a RAID card manufacturer in California) ... he bought down there in EC since it was all that was affordable. Hated it, ended up dissing the company, dumping the dump and moved to RTP to work for leading storage manufacturer EMC.

The few indicators I understand don't suggest Granby Tower and its ilk are the good investments today (duh). Aw shucks. I just never feel too sorry for real estate gamblers.

It was never a good investment, really. There was a perception for a small amount of time that property was the new gold rush, so you buy into these projects, then you resell your purchase and you get money for nothing. People were selling their spots to buy condos in Miami for $50K profit... put a deposit in the morning after camping in a tent, resold by noon for $50,000 profit. That is what Granby Tower was about. It probably should have sold out in an hour, then had the units traded like playing cards for ever escalating values, by people who never want to live there.

Is the Westin done? Is it occupied? How many lights do you see on at night time in the condos? Is it all lit up? I'm looking at the Hauge apartment tower right now. Lights on everywhere. I bet you the Westin won't look like that, neither would granby tower.

Was Mr. Decker going to move into the tower? Or was his Condo simply a placeholder... a sign of wealth, or support for those that helped him get rich? Perhaps a party spot.

Also ... who is the media company? Someone on a scuba diving message forum I read said he was laid off right before Christmas. I have to wonder. I know of several media companies in DT tied to publishing.

Folks, call me doom and gloom. Plus your ears and scream LALALALA. But this whole new economy crap is built on fraud. And it's got a long way to tumble. Greenspan is partially to blame. The so called leaders of the "American" corporations are too. We're being sold out. We need innovation, cool stuff, future modes of transportation for mankind. Not flipping poorly built property, built by illegal labor, paid for with fraudulent loans, and in-debting the future generations forever.

[Telmnstr]

(phew, fingers getting a workout).

So at what point do all of those people who have down payments freak out? The money is supposed to be held in escrow. It's popular for construction companies to form new corporations for every project. So if this project goes belly up, perhaps there is an fire break between 515 Granby or and Marathon?

I've only heard of one actual person with a deposit for a unit in Granby tower. Rumored to be an educated person who bought one with the intention of flipping it, only to miss the fine print that says you can't sell it for a year (it's common to supposedly kill the fear of flippers, but there are plenty of never lived in, "new" 1 year old properties all over the market). So he was supposedly going to try to sell one condo and move in or some such. Just hear-say.

What if all the deposit money is gone? Blown on running the show? Can they actually go after Marathon? Or are they stuck with the sub company that was setup just for this project?

Those trailers, the staff, the radio ads, the print ads... It had to cost some money.

And I hate to say it, but GT will never happen.

I'm still wondering about that random post about how GT was never supposed to happen, it was supposed to just drive up the value of the land so the gov't would pay more. I wish someone would look into that. Hefty accusation, but interesting.

[erdogs]

looks like the only one that is happy about this and the housing downturn is Tel. I guess you got your Christmas present.

[brikkman]

I don't think he's necessarily happy or sad about the downturn, I just see him stating the obvious with somewhat truthful speculation. Tel speaks to reality and I know a lot of people get on him, but the man is speaking to reality. I think a lot of what he said makes sense, hell it at least deserves a healthily "Chin scratch"

[Sky06]

"Don't cry for me Argentina",

The last I heard, Westin, Studio 56, Harbor Tower, and Rotunda all have availability (as does the smaller Marathon project on Colonial and a number of other converted Ghent condos that are not selling even with lowered prices). They are all essentially complete. Quality rental is in shorter supply and a couple of projects have already changed course to that.

Ford is gone and the ancillary businesses need to reinvent themselves or be hurt. A very significant downtown publishing employer is in layoffs. Banking is a traditionally downtown employer, but it is certainly not that healthy today. Service people simply cannot afford the Norfolk and Town Center market. Trader-uppers aren't getting great dollar, overall, and are staying put. The wealthy, however, are still doing just fine. There just aren't that many coming into town, and the trader-downers aren't getting top dollar for what they no longer need. Plus, Eastern North Carolina is offering great new lifestyle developments for half the price.

The few indicators I understand don't suggest Granby Tower and its ilk are the good investments today (duh). Aw shucks. I just never feel too sorry for real estate gamblers.

A few points to consider:

1. Most if not all the projects you mention above haven't even opened yet. I'm not too worried about them, just as I have not been worried about all the other projects that started slow and are now full.

2. Ford's closing has had little if NO impact on this area. You're listening to our biased newspaper. My understanding is that most of these blue-collar workers (who wouldn't be buying a condo in GT in the first place) have already found jobs elsewhere in the area.

3. Your comments above about banking (are they about Norfolk only or in general?), DT Norfolk, etc. are not based on any facts. They're nothing more than rumors that [self-] serve as a lead-in for your real purpose: to promote NC over Virginia as a place to do business. I'm from NE NC, but your comments are unsubstantiated and just plain comical.

4. Here are the facts: Hampton Roads' unemployment rate has sat at around 3% the whole year. Much lower than the national average. Many jobs have been created, although this fact isn't sexy enough for the Pilot, so they usually go unnoticed. For every GT, there are 100 projects that are completed in this area. It's the slow news days that grab the headlines, however.

[Sky06]

Whoa! Don't go all Tel on me now. The sky is not falling. This is one project and real estate as you know is cyclical. Westin is 85% sold, Studio 56 has 35 of its (of course) 56 units sold. Sold out? No. Disaster? Hardly. There are still developers trying to get into this market such as the plans near Harbor Park and The Landing in Virginia Beach. All one needs is a qualified developer with business sense to pull something like this off. Buddy was simply out of his depth. No need to make things seem worse than they are.

I'd add another point. People who believe that Hampton Roads is alone in the real estate downturn are simply ignorant. Did I mention that they are ignorant? In fact, HR has weathered the storm better than most areas in the country. Our extremely negative newspaper has even admitted that.

I think the contractors are just jumping on the bandwagon now. One of them jumped ship and asked for money, now the others are afraid if they don't file liens it'll get to a point where they can't recover their money. This is a sad situation to see happening, Norfolk deserves better than this. I'm really trying to hope for the best on this, but man is this thing getting ugly. Hopefully none of the prospective buyers follow suit.

As for this, this fact was bound to happen. I'm surprised they held out so long. Nothing has changed here. Pepople are just asking for money they've earned. I'd do the same. Hell, how else can you buy your kid the GI Joe with the Kung-Fu grip?

[VAGATOR]

Telmnstr maybe blunt, but he pretty much dead on. No matter how much people want to believe in this project, Gadams never had loan from a reputable bank, ever. This was said 3-4 years ago. If he never get a loan during the high flying condo flipping days, what makes anybody think he will get one with the real estate market in the tank, and with banks calling in their loans and tightening their credit. I still think this site would be great for a new library.

[Image5]

Geez Skye, the data and real news supported what I suggested. And banking being a downtown business with dim short-term outlook is obvious (see Charlotte banking layoffs, real and rumored). And finally, while it doesn't affect me personally, I want the downtown Norfolk area to boom. It seems very nice, and a great place to be. And who wouldn't want the entrepreneur to make it? But if it is not, crow is best eaten young.

But let's get off the pissing contest and consider a question....Is a community better served with low unemployment and a low average wage, or higher unemployment and higher average wage? And what is a better indicator for housing price sensitivity than average wage? I don't believe the answers are obvious.

[vtfan18]

The latest I've heard from a number of downtown attorneys is that Gaddams is trying to find a partner for the deal. I would assume this is his last shot at getting financing. Otherwise, we'll have a nice empty lot for a few years until the market can support the development.

Norfolk should put a new library across Brambleton, use our tax money to spur growth on that side of Granby. There is tons of potential for great infill projects in that area. I hope when the market turns in the coming years we'll see some good stuff pop up over there. The city will have to upgrade storm water utilities over there because it floods too easily.

[lil-bear]

There is a lot of talk swirling around this project. It is hard to know which comments are true, but safe to say that most can be taken with a grain of salt. I think that most comments are speculation and that until we know for sure that Granby Tower is dead, then we can only expect things to slowly get back on track.

[Sky06]

Geez Skye, the data and real news supported what I suggested. And banking being a downtown business with dim short-term outlook is obvious (see Charlotte banking layoffs, real and rumored). And finally, while it doesn't affect me personally, I want the downtown Norfolk area to boom. It seems very nice, and a great place to be. And who wouldn't want the entrepreneur to make it? But if it is not, crow is best eaten young.

But let's get off the pissing contest and consider a question....Is a community better served with low unemployment and a low average wage, or higher unemployment and higher average wage? And what is a better indicator for housing price sensitivity than average wage? I don't believe the answers are obvious.

What pissing contest? I understand fully the problem with banking right now. However, you're point about Charlotte is exactly why NC is no better off in that regard than Norfolk or anywhere else.

[Sky06]

There is a lot of talk swirling around this project. It is hard to know which comments are true, but safe to say that most can be taken with a grain of salt. I think that most comments are speculation and that until we know for sure that Granby Tower is dead, then we can only expect things to slowly get back on track.

Thanks for that comment. That's what I've been saying for the last 6 months.

[ace707]

There is a lot of talk swirling around this project. It is hard to know which comments are true, but safe to say that most can be taken with a grain of salt. I think that most comments are speculation and that until we know for sure that Granby Tower is dead, then we can only expect things to slowly get back on track.

Yeah bear is right. No matter how much talk is going around, in specific regard to Granby Tower we can't sit here and argue until we are told for sure what's up. The paper for the most part just adds fuel to a fire that we all want burned out but until then they'll bash the project. Everyone is right to a certain extent though. Yes the housing situation is a mess. Yes the banks are in a crunch and lending went way too far. Yes Granby is behind schedule and now officially stalled. Yes Granby will be the only major condo going up for the forseeable future. Yes Gadams is fighting for a loan even if it is tougher than he anticiapted. Yes the region is in much better shape than the nation. Yes and No Granby will be built. That last statement all depends on the situations before it. We all can really blab about what's going on, but honestly we don't really know regardless of all the talk until an official statement and perhaps physical action on the site of any kind confirms the project's future. Until then, LR, Wachovia, hotel and CC (hilton), ODU, Residence Inn, Hampton Inn, and Fort Norfolk will still keep Norfolk busy in the construction world.