Granby Tower

[spiker3]

Doesn't the Federal building already have the plans to expand on the current site, why would they scrap those plans and start over?

Also it's the best and most attractive option for Norfolk as well. Instead of having an empty dirt lot owned by someone not paying taxes on it ($33,000 and counting), the only option that could begin development quickly would be the GSA project. In the current downtown market, no new hotel, residential or office project is realistic. So rather than having an empty lot for the next five years waiting for markets to improve, I'd rather Gaddams sell the lot and put his financial hopes in court, wash his hands of this mess that he created and let the feds jump on board. With realistic timetables there could be construction beginning within a year.

and brikkman, i cannot see the planning commission EVER authorizing a strip mall in downtown Norfolk, it's the complete opposite of the atmosphere and development that's ideal for the area.

[Sky06]

In the current downtown market, no new hotel, residential or office project is realistic.

That's absurd. Just because Granby Tower may not be built, it doesn't mean nothing will be built. The current market is building Wachovia Center, Residence Inn, and the Belmont at Freemason, renovating the James Madison hotel, and I'm sure developing others. 201 Twenty One is a large complex of residential and retail, about 4 or 5 blocks from DT. I fully expect the Hilton to be built, and eventually Fort Norfolk will be built, love it or hate it.

[urbanlife]

Also it's the best and most attractive option for Norfolk as well. Instead of having an empty dirt lot owned by someone not paying taxes on it ($33,000 and counting), the only option that could begin development quickly would be the GSA project. In the current downtown market, no new hotel, residential or office project is realistic. So rather than having an empty lot for the next five years waiting for markets to improve, I'd rather Gaddams sell the lot and put his financial hopes in court, wash his hands of this mess that he created and let the feds jump on board. With realistic timetables there could be construction beginning within a year.

and brikkman, i cannot see the planning commission EVER authorizing a strip mall in downtown Norfolk, it's the complete opposite of the atmosphere and development that's ideal for the area.

actually it is probably going to be a vacant lot for the next five years easy. No one will want to get involved in a property that will probably be in and out of court for a few years if any of the future condo owners sue. The GSA will probably end up buying the lot in a deal they will probably work up which will probably be what keeps Gaddams head out of water. But if the GSA take the site, you can add another five years before anything gets built. So I figure that lot will probably be vacant for the next 5 to 10 years. Sad truth, but it isn't the first time I have seen this happen. In Bellevue and in Boise this happened, and both cities had a giant hole in their downtowns for about five years each before other developers came along to build something there.

The plus side, because piles were driven, this site will definitely be a tower of some sort, no one would ever pass up free piles.

[spiker3]

That's absurd. Just because Granby Tower may not be built, it doesn't mean nothing will be built. The current market is building Wachovia Center, Residence Inn, and the Belmont at Freemason, renovating the James Madison hotel, and I'm sure developing others. 201 Twenty One is a large complex of residential and retail, about 4 or 5 blocks from DT. I fully expect the Hilton to be built, and eventually Fort Norfolk will be built, love it or hate it.

It is absolutely not absurd, for precisely the reasons you stated: Wachovia, Residence, Belmont, Clarion, and Westin. Office. Hotel. Apartment. Office. Hotel. Key word in my original statement was new. The amount of development currently in the pipeline is staggering, particularly for the condition of the market (which is actually encouraging for Norfolk). I didn't say "nothing will ever be built", but in the current market state no developer will be announcing a new project for this ideal piece of land in the near future. Possibly in a year or two after the markets have settled and bouyed. But all the projects you state have been in development for year(s), which is my point. With so much going on, the current market just doesn't exist for a new project to come along just yet, especially with the location of this particular lot.

[lil-bear]

Even though this project is in trouble, there shouldn't be a rush to say this is dead!

There might be a REAL investor willing to get this building built.

a tweak in the usage mix might help.

A little more office space and a little less residential.

If the Hampton Inn developer could somehow get involved since his lot is adjacent to the GT site, we might have something.

[brikkman]

and brikkman, i cannot see the planning commission EVER authorizing a strip mall in downtown Norfolk, it's the complete opposite of the atmosphere and development that's ideal for the area.

Yeah, I hope I am wrong.

So far, part of city has:

Left a big area of the mall's land undeveloped,

Almost got complained out of LR

A hotel, office complex, jazz thing and something else (scrapped to an office building and jazz club)

Scrap the main library without relocating it properly

Scrap the major's idea because they needed the funding ( I guess that came about by ignoring other issues and poor planning)

And lets not forget about St. Paul's.

I know different parties are involved, all I'm saying is I wouldn't be surpised if "someone" said it was ok

[spiker3]

Even though this project is in trouble, there shouldn't be a rush to say this is dead!

There might be a REAL investor willing to get this building built.

a tweak in the usage mix might help.

A little more office space and a little less residential.

If the Hampton Inn developer could somehow get involved since his lot is adjacent to the GT site, we might have something.

I sincerely wish that were the case, unfortunately it's just not true. This project has literally zero chance at moving forward as long as Gaddams name or Marathon remains attached in any way. They've simply lost any remaining credibility and few people will be naive enough at this point to continue hoping beyond hope for a different outcome. Unless Gaddams sells outright to AH or Fulco or a similiar size developer, this project is dead. In no way can Gaddams move forward from here, he lost and he'll pay for it as a result. And if he sells, he'll still be tied up in court for the next few years as a result of the lies and fraud he perpetrated. It's unfortunate but this project in it's existing form is dead.

In regards to the Hampton inn, that project was scheduled to start in march? And Aneish Development is smaller than Marathon, it wouldn't help at all.

[brikkman]

I sincerely wish that were the case, unfortunately it's just not true. This project has literally zero chance at moving forward as long as Gaddams name or Marathon remains attached in any way. They've simply lost any remaining credibility and few people will be naive enough at this point to continue hoping beyond hope for a different outcome. Unless Gaddams sells outright to AH or Fulco or a similiar size developer, this project is dead. In no way can Gaddams move forward from here, he lost and he'll pay for it as a result. And if he sells, he'll still be tied up in court for the next few years as a result of the lies and fraud he perpetrated. It's unfortunate but this project in it's existing form is dead.

In regards to the Hampton inn, that project was scheduled to start in march? And Aneish Development is smaller than Marathon, it wouldn't help at all.

And lets mention that I believe he sold off some of his assets and home....I believe he's going through a divorce and all....At this point, its all about paying those contractors back, Gaddams has ZERO chance of pulling this through.... ZERO..!!!!

[ORFeus]

This is probably a little bit of Monday morning quarterbacking, but it seemed like Buddy was overconfident and placed himself and his project above changes in the market place. Why didn't he push to adjust Granby tower to mix use with office space when the market demand clearly showed a need for office space downtown. Plain and simple, Marathon thought, and rightfully so, that they had a superior product that was immune to supply and demand. I'm amazed at how quickly arrogance can turn into ignorance.

[urbanlife]

Even though this project is in trouble, there shouldn't be a rush to say this is dead!

There might be a REAL investor willing to get this building built.

a tweak in the usage mix might help.

A little more office space and a little less residential.

If the Hampton Inn developer could somehow get involved since his lot is adjacent to the GT site, we might have something.

that is actually what will probably happen as long as GSA doesnt get involved again. But it will not be tomorrow that a new developer will jump on board, it will be a few years from now after everything in the market settles.

[umterp03]

And lets mention that I believe he sold off some of his assets and home....I believe he's going through a divorce and all....At this point, its all about paying those contractors back, Gaddams has ZERO chance of pulling this through.... ZERO..!!!!

Actually his house is still for sale on Colonial Avenue in Ghent, I jog by it almost everyday, he's only asking for 1.2 million

[nedlilly]

Good grief, this is a tough crowd. Have any of the people who constantly berate Marathon/Gadams ever built anything remotely approaching the size of Granby Tower? "He's a liar, he stinks, wah wah wah."

This thing would (and could still be) one of the best things to ever happen to Norfolk - and even greater Hampton Roads. I grew up in this area, went to school here, then spent 11 years in New York and DC before moving back. I started a small software company a few weeks after 9/11, and have gutted it out through some very tough times. (My company recently bought - and is renovating - the two buildings adjacent to the GT site on Bute and York Streets, so there's my bias). Happily, we're now beginning to have some success - but only because I was fortunate enough to have investors who believed in me and our company, and didn't pull out at the first sign of trouble.

Good grief, the Monday morning quarterbacking and snidely shots at Gadams are really starting to wear on me. Does anyone here have any idea what it's like to have the federal government hold your livelihood hostage for over a year? Only to release the property just in time for the worst housing market in decades? And have your bankers - who were almost certainly already protected against anything short of a mile-wide meteor hitting the site - pull out on you and have the nerve to blame other people's previous bad investments?

People, this project is about vision - and balls. I don't know Buddy Gadams personally, but it strikes me that he's demonstrated the enduring presence of both over the past few years. And all the posters here who go on about what a fast-talker he is, and if only we had a real development company in here, etc., etc., would - I think - be well advised to sit down and re-read their copy of ATLAS SHRUGGED.

I'm not saying Buddy Gadams is John Galt or Hank Rearden. But I do think that those of us who have the recessive gene to be obsessing about big-time real estate like we do, ought to at least give the benefit of the doubt to someone who's put it all out there like he has.

[Padman]

What Nedlilly said +1

In sum, we can blame the whole financial sector for the real estate collapse, not just the little Buddys of the world.

[brikkman]

I think people are more concerned about the lies if anything (at least I am). Be straight about it...

Through all this support, in the end a clause in his contracts with the contrators stipulates that they will not be paid unless he gets financing (which he never got) and that doesn't leave you in "awe"?

Really, after all of this, the contract clause doesn't make you go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"?

If he was worried about his name he probably would have seek to other investors to at least get it built with his name attached to it...He took a shot at the big times, flopped, and now he's trying to swindle his way out of it. If the contract clause doesn't make you think other wise, then you obviously think he's a saint and your mind can not be changed...

We were all supports of this project; we all wanted to see it get built!!!

Hey Nedlilly, have any openings? lol

[vtfan18]

Good grief, this is a tough crowd. Have any of the people who constantly berate Marathon/Gadams ever built anything remotely approaching the size of Granby Tower? "He's a liar, he stinks, wah wah wah."

This thing would (and could still be) one of the best things to ever happen to Norfolk - and even greater Hampton Roads. I grew up in this area, went to school here, then spent 11 years in New York and DC before moving back. I started a small software company a few weeks after 9/11, and have gutted it out through some very tough times. (My company recently bought - and is renovating - the two buildings adjacent to the GT site on Bute and York Streets, so there's my bias). Happily, we're now beginning to have some success - but only because I was fortunate enough to have investors who believed in me and our company, and didn't pull out at the first sign of trouble.

Good grief, the Monday morning quarterbacking and snidely shots at Gadams are really starting to wear on me. Does anyone here have any idea what it's like to have the federal government hold your livelihood hostage for over a year? Only to release the property just in time for the worst housing market in decades? And have your bankers - who were almost certainly already protected against anything short of a mile-wide meteor hitting the site - pull out on you and have the nerve to blame other people's previous bad investments?

People, this project is about vision - and balls. I don't know Buddy Gadams personally, but it strikes me that he's demonstrated the enduring presence of both over the past few years. And all the posters here who go on about what a fast-talker he is, and if only we had a real development company in here, etc., etc., would - I think - be well advised to sit down and re-read their copy of ATLAS SHRUGGED.

I'm not saying Buddy Gadams is John Galt or Hank Rearden. But I do think that those of us who have the recessive gene to be obsessing about big-time real estate like we do, ought to at least give the benefit of the doubt to someone who's put it all out there like he has.

I'd agree that the general public doesn't give enough credit to developers willing to take risk. However, to keep this very short and simple...and as stated in previous posts. Many of us have a bad taste in our mouths because of the "misleading" comments and misdirection. Insiders know but will never speak openly about this - Buddy never had intentions of building Granby Tower. It was very much a marketing means to command the highest price possible from GSA. The entire idea grew larger than life and snowballed from there. I would love to see it built, but nothing is going to happen with it for years to come.

[Padman]

It's really almost comical the way this thing turned out. After waiting 40 years for a really significant tower to grace Norfolk's little skyline, I'm heartbroken about this debacle. And yet I knew all along on some level that it was an improbable project. This thing took longer to die out than the finale of the Mahler 9th. I feel like a masochist--a fool. Stick a fork in it, stick a fork in me.

[umterp03]

I can give him credit about being persistent throughout all this, but I wonder how the people who put deposits down feel about him. Obviously it looks like those people aren't going to move in anytime soon.. I hope they all get their deposits back after this whole mess is figured out.

[spiker3]

This from the VP in August of last year:

When asked Wednesday if the financing was in place for the project, Gadams said he wouldn’t have told Turner to start work if he didn’t have the money.

Quotes like that are the precisely the reason that Gaddams has long since lost the benefit of the doubt and credibility.

ned, obviously few if any of us have built anything on the scale that Gaddams has proposed, including Gaddams, which is the reason we're in this mess. The GSA did not hold his livelihood hostage, in fact when the GSA announced it's plans he said he was still moving forward; the city put Baxter's up, Gaddams continued moving forward, quote from August 05

“There is a tremendous market demand for people who want to be downtown,” he said. “We’re not going to be deterred at all by the GSA’s actions.”

A short time later, GSA focused on Baxters and Monticello, freeing Gaddams and GT to move forward. So they drove test piles (December 05) and proceeded to do nothing for one year and let the market go south. Three or four years ago, I'd agree that Gaddams was putting it on the line, risk taker, pioneer, etc. He took too much of a risk, one he couldn't back up. And now we'll stuck with a dirt lot that will sit empty for years as a result. I'd gladly eat crow if this moves forward. Hell, i'd buy a unit and say i was wrong, gladly. But i'm not.

vtfan, I'm actually more on the fence now about the highest price possible thing. At first glance it looks to be rational: Gaddams stalled for years, consistently bobbing and weaving with dates, construction times and details. But in July 2005 allegedly GSA asked: "how much?" Though he said it wasn't for sale, he and his lawyer both quoted a $50 - $70 million sales figure as being owed for the land. Certainly the number seems dubious and perhaps the GSA never considered it, but if they actually made an extension of an offer one year after announcing his plans, why not sell then and there? Something's still not adding up...

In ten days, it will be the four year anniversary of the announcement of this project. It's strangely fitting, but i think that vdogg should lock this thread on the 31st until the news of the death of this project is official, or a legitimate third party announces financing (not Gaddams and at this point even Fraim looks ridiculous). Anyone disagree?

[urbanvb]

anyone know if the sales office is still open?

[Telmnstr]

What Nedlilly said +1

In sum, we can blame the whole financial sector for the real estate collapse, not just the little Buddys of the world.

Actually, you can blame the financial sector, the gov't, the realtors, the builders, and yes, the PEOPLE for the real estate collapse. However, there was tons of housing built as a result of the run up. We owe it to the run up for all of the condo projects, and the redevelopment around the city, even if the people who bought into them are going to loose quite a bit of money.

I think GT would have worked if it had not been delayed by the court house. If it was started at the right time, the get rich greed factor would be in full effect and people would have been jumping on it, to buy their place in the condo building, and rapidly flip it to someone else. Yes, I know there is a 1 year clause, but that hasn't stopped many other people (yes, I've heard rumors that people who actually DID put down money were looking to flip!).

This is just one of a million casualties, of missing the market. There was a window when people would buy anything, at any price, backed by huge loans that they probably couldn't even afford. It's not their money, and it wasn't earned, so they don't really care about it.

Personally, I live in an apartment with "a view." I can see Portsmouth, and Norfolk. People wet themselves sometimes over it. I know that after the first week of living with a killer view, you don't notice it. My rent says that my apartment should cost around $140K. It has a way better view than anything on Bosch Street, Granby Street. Harbor Heights beats it, but then again Hauge Towers beats it as well and their units are similarly priced. I don't like the management company, and don't really like renting (yes, I could technically afford to buy a place, but know I would be getting ripped off).

In the end, I think we should all hope that the normal people get their money back. Remember, first and foremost the reason for GT is to make the company massive amounts of money. The more money the better. This is why you can look up places like "Ghent on the Square" that converted from apartments to condos. I did rough math, and the people were looking for over $7,000,000 profit on selling those lame apartments as condos. First and foremost, it's greed. Greed is the American way. People buy to get rich quick. People sell to get rich quick. I'm not hating on it, but pointing it out.

Marathon probably LLC'ed the GT project, as most builders do. Bankrupt the LLC, leave everyone hanging and continue on with business as usual. It's how Trump does it.

GT won't happen for many years to come. The tower of the elite will have to wait. I don't think real people with real money would actually want to own any of that, unless it's just a guest house for visitors. The showroom model was small. It made a double wide trailer look like a McMansion. I seriously wouldn't pay a bit over $100K, and the unit would have to be high up.

The sales box was sooo small. I mean, come on. $400K? That's throwing money away.

anyone know if the sales office is still open?

It seems to always be closed. The big sign fell over, and they never put it back up. Think they would sell that model for like $50 or something?

[vtfan18]

vtfan, I'm actually more on the fence now about the highest price possible thing. At first glance it looks to be rational: Gaddams stalled for years, consistently bobbing and weaving with dates, construction times and details. But in July 2005 allegedly GSA asked: "how much?" Though he said it wasn't for sale, he and his lawyer both quoted a $50 - $70 million sales figure as being owed for the land. Certainly the number seems dubious and perhaps the GSA never considered it, but if they actually made an extension of an offer one year after announcing his plans, why not sell then and there? Something's still not adding up...

In ten days, it will be the four year anniversary of the announcement of this project. It's strangely fitting, but i think that vdogg should lock this thread on the 31st until the news of the death of this project is official, or a legitimate third party announces financing (not Gaddams and at this point even Fraim looks ridiculous). Anyone disagree?

Remember, GSA was threatening eminent domain which means, by law, Buddy would have received "just compensation" for the property. Then the project gathered huge public support and the backing of the city leading to millions in tax incentives after it was to be built. After it's reached this stage, how do you turn back? You can't say "ok, I'll sell out to GSA now." I don't think he ever intended to have it drag out this far. To date, the largest project he's completed is around 24 units (low-rise). Completely different story attempting to build a high rise of this nature without an experienced partner and his "source" of financing (which fell through) is not a traditional lender. Huge project with too much financial risk to be learning as "you go" and he was quoted on tv saying that he never knew he had to apply for permits to reserve air rights above the property. I think and other close to the "story" believe that in the beginning of this whole thing it was never about building the project. Doesn't mean he wasn't full steam ahead later down the road but what choice do you have if you've backed yourself into a corner...

[VAGATOR]

The Federal Government issue has been always overblown. If he truly had the money and juice to get this project done, the right people would have stepped in long ago to deal with the feds.

[vdogg]

It's like a funeral in here. I think each of us knew this day was coming, just be glad it finally did. Now we can move on to bigger and better things and start planning for the future of this lot, instead of being in this constant state of limbo. I view what happened this week as a good thing, because we now can get a sense of finality about this whole project. I had come to the conclusion sometime ago that this wouldn't go through, hopefully now we can get a new developer with deeper pockets and somewhat more experience to take this over and put something there that is as grand as originally planned.

[urbanlife]

Huge project with too much financial risk to be learning as "you go" and he was quoted on tv saying that he never knew he had to apply for permits to reserve air rights above the property. I think and other close to the "story" believe that in the beginning of this whole thing it was never about building the project. Doesn't mean he wasn't full steam ahead later down the road but what choice do you have if you've backed yourself into a corner...

Actually I can understand not knowing that one. If it is something you have never needed to apply for in the years of developing, that can come as a surprise. Most cities, lots already have a height limit to them and you would only have to file a permit if you wanted to go above that height, here in Portland we have height limits as well as Floor to Area Ratio which depicts the maximum size and shape a building can be. So I can see getting caught off guard on this one. Actually the funny thing about doing any construction, this is a common thing, getting hit with permit requirements that you didnt know about. There is alot of paper work in making a building happen and unless it is a firm that is building tower after tower in a region, it is easy to be caught off guard from time to time.

Gaddams took a big risk with this and it didnt pan out for him like he thought it would. That happens and this industry is a very tough industry for that reason.

[Telmnstr]

Should we hold a mock funeral for the Granby Tower?

A friend showed me an article yesterday where developers are starting to sue the lenders saying their cutbacks in financing resulted in their losses.