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I know you're one of the few posters on this site that's fond of TBOB and more or less all things Bristol. But since you mentioned you are an engineer I found it surprising that you'd go to Choate's website and offer the board such a glowing appraisal that completely ignored the more technical point at issue. Of course, it's not a crime to see little or no value in high rise experience for a firm building a high rise, I've just never heard a professional engineer say it before.
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^ Fair enough. Every experienced high rise contractor had to built their first one at some point. I wasn't trying to impune the reputation of Choate. My only point was to make it clear that when developers choose construction and design teams that don't have high rise experience they do so with an assumption of significant additional risk. As you suggested, things can be done to manage this risk (like having an experienced highrise architect) but, again, if nobody on the team has this unique experience it's not as though you just implement some magic policy or procedure that makes the risk go away (see Post#5 on this thread by Topcat).

IMO the better way to approach the experience issue is not having a situation where ALL the key players are without high-rise experience. Your professional justification for ccompromising on this experience sounds more reasonable to me when the inexperience is limited to just one of the three key team members (developer, architect, contractor). In the case of ICON I think all are without it and so, again, in light of the project's delays and the apparent structural problems cited at the beginning of this thread, I think this has some relevance to those trying to understand why this might be occuring.

I too love Nashville, beautiful buildings, ground floor retail, bananas, pretty girls, sunsets, etc. etc. and will continue to love them for years (I hope). Not sure why I needed to say that other than that is seems to be getting trendy to finish posts with a patriotic salute to Nashville and pledge our allegiance to the built environment. So, in case it wasn't clear before now I'm on record. For the sake of shorter posts I hope we eventually feel less compelled to do this.

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According to their website, Choate broke ground on the 22 Story Parc at Buckhead in September 2006. Therefore, they're working on two 22 story towers simultaneously. They have also built a number of 11 and 12 story towers already, such as the 11 Story Waterford on Piedmont in Atlanta. They've won all kinds of awards from just about every imaginable source for their construction projects, so it seems these guys are not getting a fair shake from everyone on this thread.

Me/ I have absolutely no worries about the Icon construction, based on all of this.

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Been lurking for awhile and since I am an owner at ICON I thought I would stick my head in and first say hello....so Hi.

Now with that out of the way lets talk about this rumor. I dont really care if Bristol doesnt have any experience with a high rise. No experience with a high rise is a long way from saying that the "footings are slipping and that columns were set in out of plumb" That is a pretty specific thing to say. Saying your source is close but not an insider says nothing about the crediblity of the source. I guess the valet at watermark is close. The sushi chef at Uncle Ru's is close as well. Maybe they have some insider info they can share.

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Been lurking for awhile and since I am an owner at ICON I thought I would stick my head in and first say hello....so Hi.

Now with that out of the way lets talk about this rumor. I dont really care if Bristol doesnt have any experience with a high rise. No experience with a high rise is a long way from saying that the "footings are slipping and that columns were set in out of plumb" That is a pretty specific thing to say. Saying your source is close but not an insider says nothing about the crediblity of the source. I guess the valet at watermark is close. The sushi chef at Uncle Ru's is close as well. Maybe they have some insider info they can share.

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Been lurking for awhile and since I am an owner at ICON I thought I would stick my head in and first say hello....so Hi.

Now with that out of the way lets talk about this rumor. I dont really care if Bristol doesnt have any experience with a high rise. No experience with a high rise is a long way from saying that the "footings are slipping and that columns were set in out of plumb" That is a pretty specific thing to say. Saying your source is close but not an insider says nothing about the crediblity of the source. I guess the valet at watermark is close. The sushi chef at Uncle Ru's is close as well. Maybe they have some insider info they can share.

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^Hankster, I don't think anyone suggested Choate was a bad company or lacked "talent". I think the discussion was more nuanced and related to what kind of high rise experience they've had. In only his or her 3rd post with us eatmorepasta stated emphatically that Choate had "tons of experience with high rises" before uttering an insult for me thinking otherwise. I'm sure you share my concern about folks posting factually inaccurate information, especailly with such conviction; most of us don't have the time or inclination to do the leg work necessary to verify these kind of things. And we shouldn't have to.

As an engineer, I'd hope the lack of a high rise anywhere on Choate's website wouldn't be lost on you. I would also think you'd have an appreciation for the challenges that construction companies, even good ones like Choate, often face getting the first few high rises successfully under their belt. As you must know, the means, methods and pace are different, and more complex, than with low rise buildings. And I think most experienced professionals would contend these challenges are only magnified when most of the other project team members (developer, architect, & MEP engineers) are ALSO without much or any high rise experience.

I know you're one of the few posters on this site that's fond of TBOB and more or less all things Bristol. But since you mentioned you are an engineer I found it surprising that you'd go to Choate's website and offer the board such a glowing appraisal that completely ignored the more technical point at issue. Of course, it's not a crime to see little or no value in high rise experience for a firm building a high rise, I've just never heard a professional engineer say it before.

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Hankster, I thought you had said spoken your piece up above and though tempted I figured I'd give you the last word. But since, for some reason, you apparently want two last words please allow me to clarify.

AGAIN, the point at issue wasn't whether Choate was a good contractor or had ever won awards (most any decent contractor has btw) it was whether some of delays apparent on this job (the basis for the origin of this thread) were a result of the project team lacking high rise experience. Actually, you initially set out to defend eatmorepasta's silly assertion that Choate had "tons" of high rise experience, but now I'm digressing... You've pointed out (as I had) that they've finished a few mid rise buildings but also confirmed (oddly) that they have yet to complete their first high rise. The fact that they are in the midst of building one (no, with ICON make that two) doesn't give them high rise experience it gives them an opportunity to gain some (good or bad). The PM and superintendants on ICON obviously didn't work on the other one you say is currently under construction in Atlanta (and vice a versa).

You and PHofKS seem to be suggesting that "experience" is simply a box to be checked yes or no. I only wish it were that simple. It is, unfortunately, a much more complicated and subjective analyis. Most prudent owners planning high-rise condos not only want to know how many high-rise condos the team members (architects, contractors and engineers) have built, they also want to talk to the clients and determine whether it was a good experience from the standpoint of cost overruns and delays. As I said previously, this doesn't foreclose the possiblity of using a contractor without it but most experienced high-rise condo developers (which Bristol quite clearly is not) would make sure the architect's experience made up for this deficit. KA, qualified a firm as they seem to be for some disciplines, doesn't appear to be a high rise specialist or to have even completed one before.

Now you can still contend that it doesn't matter, that it's theoretically possible for a first timer in anything to have success (even when there are storm clouds on the horizon). But I think it's silly for you to try so hard to ignore the fact that the apparent combined high rise experience deficiency of Choate, KA and Bristol could be contributing to some of the problems and delays we're seeing and hearing about. There have been numberous posts on this blog by earnest buyers trying to seek out advise on how to evaluate one project to the next. To be honest, I think you are doing them a disservice, and wasting your engineering degree to suggest that the collective experience of this team is comparable to any other. Experience counts, even in a busy market, probably more so.

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Welcome to the board, Greenspace. Your questions are reasonable...Many of us are "hearing" about delays but the fact that the job is way behind schedule and moving at a snails pace is obvious to anyone familiar with construction; so we "see" it too. I've heard about the cost overruns and delays from an employee of the forming contractor, two different lenders that appeared familiar with the goings on of Bristol, and a third reliable source I can't divulge. As to the delayed status of the job though don't take my word for it, seek out any major subcontractor, architect, or contractor that's been observing this job over the last year and they'll tell you the same thing; this job's going way to slowly. I'd suggest seeking this input from other sources, including the developer, if you still find what you're hearing here to be unpersuasive.

Ironically, since you are an owner you are in a terrific position to enlighten the board as to the status of the project's timing, at least in terms of what's been represented to you by the developer. The contracts I've seen require the developer to be finished by next April. Can you confirm this ? Do you still have an expectation that this may still happen ? Typically, when a developer knows about significant delays they try to keep their buyers informed of the status.

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Welcome to the board, Greenspace. Your questions are reasonable...Many of us are "hearing" about delays but the fact that the job is way behind schedule and moving at a snails pace is obvious to anyone familiar with construction; so we "see" it too. I've heard about the cost overruns and delays from an employee of the forming contractor, two different lenders that appeared familiar with the goings on of Bristol, and a third reliable source I can't divulge. As to the delayed status of the job though don't take my word for it, seek out any major subcontractor, architect, or contractor that's been observing this job over the last year and they'll tell you the same thing; this job's going way to slowly. I'd suggest seeking this input from other sources, including the developer, if you still find what you're hearing here to be unpersuasive.

Ironically, since you are an owner you are in a terrific position to enlighten the board as to the status of the project's timing, at least in terms of what's been represented to you by the developer. The contracts I've seen require the developer to be finished by next April. Can you confirm this ? Do you still have an expectation that this may still happen ? Typically, when a developer knows about significant delays they try to keep their buyers informed of the status.

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No comment ? I wasn't trying to interrogate you, only get a little more factual information about the project which obviously helps limit speculation. It seems like kind of a waste of keystrokes to tell everyone they're on the 5th floor and, frankly, you leave me kind of curious as to why you're complaining so much about the "speculation" yet not willing to offer any confirmed 1st hand facts yourself. As the buyer you said you were I thought you could offer some unique insights (other than what floor they're on) which is why I posed the questions. Frankly, I thought you'd jump at the opportunity to enlighten us all, what with us speculating and guessing about so much. Oh well.

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No comment ? I wasn't trying to interrogate you, only get a little more factual information about the project which obviously helps limit speculation. It seems like kind of a waste of keystrokes to tell everyone they're on the 5th floor and, frankly, you leave me kind of curious as to why you're complaining so much about the "speculation" yet not willing to offer any confirmed 1st hand facts yourself. As the buyer you said you were I thought you could offer some unique insights (other than what floor they're on) which is why I posed the questions. Frankly, I thought you'd jump at the opportunity to enlighten us all, what with us speculating and guessing about so much. Oh well.
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Well since I started this I have sought out another person, close, but not "inside" and they confirmed that there are problems. This person understands construction much better than the original source, so they are slightly different takes but essentrially the same. There is apparently some compressive failures in some of the concrete columns due to a bad mix. This has caused significant delay and is continuing to slow things up, even though they are working hard at getting the problems corrected and getting the building up.

Not good, but not the end of the world either.

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Regardless of the nature of any delays this project might be experiencing one fact remains: Encore appears to be way ahead of the ICON despite getting starting so much later. I think this will be very advantageous to all the Encore investor buyers providing them with a big head start to resell their units. Their cause would be helped even further IMO if the Viridian buyers would get more realistic in their asking prices for the 60 or 70 units that are still available. But even if several units there do remain available I think Encore will probably offer a better product (than V) and thus still command a big advantage.

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That could well be I didn't recall what date they had actually started. As you can see from Bristol's own press release on 12/16/05 (not 2006, which must have been a typo) December 2005 is when they had claimed to have started. http://www.iconinthegulch.com/press/press_121606.pdf Thanks for clarifying.

As to their schedule update I'm obviously very surprised to hear they still think April is remotely possible. Like Hankster, I too will be watching to see how they will catch and finish at roughly the same time as Encore, especially since Encore is topped out and has glass all the way up to about 14 or 15 and ICON has yet to glaze anything. For those unfamiliar with construction, once glazing is in place soft interior finishes can start being installed. It looks to me like Encore is probably close to being 50% complete on it's drywall already. The other big advantage Encore has from a scheduling standpoint (since both developers apparently have about the same current finish target) is that, other than balcony installation, Novare has very little, if any, exterior work to do once the glass is in place. It's my understanding that Bristol is applying "skin" to it's exterior, which as one might imagine, will add many months to the schedule.

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  • 2 weeks later...
That could well be I didn't recall what date they had actually started. As you can see from Bristol's own press release on 12/16/05 (not 2006, which must have been a typo) December 2005 is when they had claimed to have started. http://www.iconinthegulch.com/press/press_121606.pdf Thanks for clarifying.

As to their schedule update I'm obviously very surprised to hear they still think April is remotely possible. Like Hankster, I too will be watching to see how they will catch and finish at roughly the same time as Encore, especially since Encore is topped out and has glass all the way up to about 14 or 15 and ICON has yet to glaze anything. For those unfamiliar with construction, once glazing is in place soft interior finishes can start being installed. It looks to me like Encore is probably close to being 50% complete on it's drywall already. The other big advantage Encore has from a scheduling standpoint (since both developers apparently have about the same current finish target) is that, other than balcony installation, Novare has very little, if any, exterior work to do once the glass is in place. It's my understanding that Bristol is applying "skin" to it's exterior, which as one might imagine, will add many months to the schedule.

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Hey good to see you back Richard.

Reading through the Tennessean there was a Gultch article today and it mentioned a slew of projects that are to open/move in by next fall, I believe the Icon was on the list. Delayed or not, it's still rising.

Question for Richard, actually this is regarding permits. I did a search on the post and couldn't find a permit patrol for June, got one for May and July. Reason I'm asking is because I tired to find any type of permits for Siggy that were supposedly pulled in June but came up empty.

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Hey good to see you back Richard.

Reading through the Tennessean there was a Gultch article today and it mentioned a slew of projects that are to open/move in by next fall, I believe the Icon was on the list. Delayed or not, it's still rising.

Question for Richard, actually this is regarding permits. I did a search on the post and couldn't find a permit patrol for June, got one for May and July. Reason I'm asking is because I tired to find any type of permits for Siggy that were supposedly pulled in June but came up empty.

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  • 2 months later...

Earlier this Summer, we all talked about the rumors that the Icon was having some delays and I believe there were some on here that swore this thing would top out in October and they'd have their keys by April. From what I've seen, this thing is a ways off from topping out, and I think I heard the other day that it would be at least a year from now before folks could move in.

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Earlier this Summer, we all talked about the rumors that the Icon was having some delays and I believe there were some on here that swore this thing would top out in October and they'd have their keys by April. From what I've seen, this thing is a ways off from topping out, and I think I heard the other day that it would be at least a year from now before folks could move in.
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