Europeans have it much better than Americans these days.

[erdogs]

If illegal immigrants don't come here to go on welfare, then how is it that they are such a massive drain on our welfare systems, as conservatives like yourself love to claim? Europe has a substantial undocumented population as well as the US. Illegal immigration doesn't get as much publicity in Europe because American politicians have specifically chosen to make a campaign issue out of it. That doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist or is any less common.

[Gusterfell]

European countries don't have an open border that people can just walk across, that's the difference.

[erdogs]

Since the EU was established, crossing the borders between member nations isn't much different from crossing the borders between US states. Between members there are very open borders. Some members, particularly recent members in eastern Europe, don't have very strong controls on immigration from outside the EU.

The US doesn't count workers who have stopped looking for work either, as that immediately disqualifies one for unemployment benefits.

I don't know whether you consider yourself a conservative or not, but you have a long history of arguing typically right-wing views on this forum. I apologise if I jumped to any conclusions about your stance on illegal immigration

[monsoon]

European countries don't have an open border that people can just walk across, that's the difference.

Also, France doesn't count workers that have stopped looking for work, I don't know if the same can be said for here so that could also skew the numbers.

[swh1972]

For the lucky ones that have a pension and benefits, they would never dream about going to work in that dreadful place. (it's no longer the S. Walton Walmart) The ones that do work there are there because they have no other options and need the money to survive. This includes ever increasing numbers of people because over the last 20 years of GOP control, corporations have been given tools to dump their retirement plans using the bankruptcy laws. It's a disgraceful practice because it's only being done to put money in executive's pockets and dumps the problem into the federal government's hands.

[monsoon]

......

Those greeters working at Walmart are just as likely there because they believed Social Security would take care of them in their retirement, or because they worked for a labor union their entire life thinking it would do the same for them.

.....

[swh1972]

True, no Senior Citizen believes that SS will take care of them - they only need to look at their check to realize that, but how many Americans blindly believe that their retirement is taken care of by the Government or the company they worked for, corporation or not? How many Americans do very little or no planning at all for their retirement? To put blame for this on the shoulders of Government and the GOP misses the mark.

People are responsible for themselves - the Government can assist when necessary, but bottom line is you have to be aware of your own situation, make your own decisions, and if those decisions result in not having any plan for retirement, when you get there, you have to find an alternative means to get by.

True, there are some instances, and maybe many, where companies went back on promises to employees for retirement. This is part of the risk. If the company is no longer there to pay for your retirement, they can't very well do so. The auto industry is hamstrung with billions of dollars of pension liabilities for current and past employees. To get away from this, more and more are moving to defined contribution plans rather than defined benefit plans...you get a pre determined amount each year while you are working, and it's up to you as to what to do with it.

[runawayjim]

True, no Senior Citizen believes that SS will take care of them - they only need to look at their check to realize that, but how many Americans blindly believe that their retirement is taken care of by the Government or the company they worked for, corporation or not? How many Americans do very little or no planning at all for their retirement? To put blame for this on the shoulders of Government and the GOP misses the mark.

[monsoon]

^Exactly. It's being done to enrich the greedy executives and they have lobbied the government to have he laws changed so they are able to dump retirement plans after promising them to employees for their entire working lives. The reason it doesn't happen in other countries is because the laws won't let them go back on promises.

This isn't a question of being responsible for your own retirement and the blame isn't on those who were shortchanged out of their retirement plans.

[swh1972]

So to that point, where do you place the blame in the Auto Industry? Is it on the shoulders of the CEO, the Board of Directors, or does some of the blame get placed on the leaders of the Unions?

[runawayjim]

So to that point, where do you place the blame in the Auto Industry? Is it on the shoulders of the CEO, the Board of Directors, or does some of the blame get placed on the leaders of the Unions?

[swh1972]

i say it's equally on all their backs. i take it you sympathize with unions. they haven't done a whole lot of good in recent years. while a few of them might be good, most aren't. i've worked places where union people work along side non-union people. the non-union people get a lot more work done for about the same amount of money and get the same amount of free time.

[Captain Worley]

I'm not so sure I'd race to blame the employers. If it is a choice of declaring bankruptcy and shedding the retirement liability vs the company ceasing to exist and thus no retirement for anyone, I think the former would be better for society, although I have a problem with the retirment being dumped for the taxpayer to pick up.

Bottom line is, we are all responsible for our own individual futures, and shouldn't count on anyone, be it our employer or the government, to pull the load. I've been planning for retirement for over fifteen years, since I was 25. Hopefully, I'll get a pension from mny current job, but I'm not counting on it, and making plans as if it won't be there.

It'd be a lot easier if they would let me invest my own social security funds.

[Miesian Corners]

I'm not so sure I'd race to blame the employers. If it is a choice of declaring bankruptcy and shedding the retirement liability vs the company ceasing to exist and thus no retirement for anyone, I think the former would be better for society, although I have a problem with the retirment being dumped for the taxpayer to pick up.

[michaelskis]

To get back on topic...

I looked into it a bit more and vacation times have always been longer than in the US... it is part of their culture. Comparing the two are like comparing lemons and oranges... similar, but very different.

[monsoon]

.....

I looked into it a bit more and vacation times have always been longer than in the US... it is part of their culture. Comparing the two are like comparing lemons and oranges... similar, but very different.

[WOT]

I'm not so sure I'd race to blame the employers. If it is a choice of declaring bankruptcy and shedding the retirement liability vs the company ceasing to exist and thus no retirement for anyone, I think the former would be better for society, although I have a problem with the retirment being dumped for the taxpayer to pick up.

Bottom line is, we are all responsible for our own individual futures, and shouldn't count on anyone, be it our employer or the government, to pull the load. I've been planning for retirement for over fifteen years, since I was 25. Hopefully, I'll get a pension from mny current job, but I'm not counting on it, and making plans as if it won't be there.

It'd be a lot easier if they would let me invest my own social security funds.

[Captain Worley]

To get back on topic...

I looked into it a bit more and vacation times have always been longer than in the US... it is part of their culture. Comparing the two are like comparing lemons and oranges... similar, but very different.

[WOT]

I guess when you count holidays and vacation, all the jobs I have had provided around 5 weeks off. I believe that's fairly close to Europe. The work hours ARE longer here,though.

I agree, there's a lot more to life than just money, but from what I've seen/heard, I still perfer the USA when you consider everything.

[swh1972]

Maybe I don't understand pension plans clearly, but the company that establishes a pension plan does so as an investment. Instead of compensating the employee with pay now, they compensate the employee with investments so that in the future the employee can draw against those plans. The company has already committed to those investment dollars. Enough is supposed to be invested into the fund so that the payments can be made in the future. Now, if a company decides to play games and not invest as much now with the idea they can invest more later, well, that is their choice. But they are still responsible for that payment. That was direct money owed to the employee. You can't decide later that you are going to demand money from an employee ten years down the road because you decided they shouldn't have gotten that much pay, so why is a company able to be exempt from giving back those wages? That's downright theft - those were compensation, not a loan or a bill.

The fact is many of our seniors today grew up in a world where pensions WERE your retirement benefit, where all these crazy investment schemes were actually seen as gambling and not safe investing. Now, the whole system is ruled by investing and financial wheelers and dealers. Any money owed to the public at large is a liability. Do you have to deal with a retirement or even worse an elderly issue? The whole scheme is screwed up - you cannot get any benefits until you actually blow all your money. Your only hope is to either a)blow through your money faster so you get on Social Security sooner or b)croak before you go through all your money. It's sickening, it disheartening, and it's a blow to anyone who has ever tried to establish any future for their family. I may be going out on a limb on this one, but within twenty years, if nothing else is done the whole system is going to collapse on itself. No one can build up wealth, because it only goes away, there is no reason to invest or work harder because it will just prolong your misery, and productivity will plummet, because increased productivity would only induce more cutbacks and thus make financial situations even worse for the workers.

[monsoon]

I agree completely! I think in our present times, it almost would be more beneicial IN THE LONG run if no companies offered any benefits (medical or pension/retirment). Let the company focus on doing what they do best, i.e. making widits, selling widgets or servicing widgets and let we the people take care of our own lifes. If there were no medical insurance at all - would the free market be allowed to work in pricing that the customer can pay? I do not know the answer to that, but have begun to ponder. Same with retirement - get the government and my company OUT of my personal goals and let me invest those ss dedcutions in a nice safe conservative mutual fund and I will have a much better life in the golden years. Just an average Joe here thinking about new alternatives

[swh1972]

The point is not in the methods, but in how society had decided to take care of its people. In the other industrialized countries, society has determined it is in the best interest of everyone to insure that everyone has some basic rights to sustenance living, and a level of benefits befitting a member of that society. Here in the USA we have completely the opposite mentality that "I am going to get mine and screw the rest". IMO this is not the mark of a good society to live in and my contention that the average western European and Japanese have it much better these days than the average American.

[monsoon]

I'm not so sure I'd race to blame the employers. If it is a choice of declaring bankruptcy and shedding the retirement liability vs the company ceasing to exist and thus no retirement for anyone, I think the former would be better for society, although I have a problem with the retirment being dumped for the taxpayer to pick up.....

[Captain Worley]

^^ I don't like it, but that's the way the game is played today. You are still left with a choice. No company and no pensions, or a company and no pensions.

Its an ugly choice, but I think the correct choice is clear.

Don't take this as condoning the practice by any stretch of the imagination.

I DO condone taking an active roll in your future ( that is start your own IRA or some other plan to squirrel away money for the future). Don't count on anybody but yourself.

[monsoon]

^^ I don't like it, but that's the way the game is played today. You are still left with a choice. No company and no pensions, or a company and no pensions.....