Is Virginia finally over its "fear of heights"?

[hoobo]

This is exactly my point. if alabama can economically support buildings of this size, there should be NO question that virginia can.

[beltwayboy08]

Actually if you look at it, there are alot of office parks thoughout all of Virginia. I am not sure, but I remember once hearing that there was as much office space in Lynnhaven as there was in DT Norfolk, or something like that. Might be something to look into for correct numbers. Northern Virginia is basically an example of what happens when office parks fill up and have no where else to go but up. Really that is all Tyson's Corner is, which is also why that area is a mess.

Plus another thing to keep in mind with building tall is risk. Banks don't like to lend to things that are not sure bets. I am sure it took alot of talking and negotiating to get the money to build the Westin that tall because it is the first one in VA. Also the reason why it is much easier to get a 15 story building constructed because it is something banks are more familiar with.

Richmond is really the only city in that state that could potentially get up into the 700 foot range any time in the next 20 years.

[beltwayboy08]

Richmond likely needs more downtown residents and definitely more downtown retail. There's over 7000 people living downtown now, and the residents will need more services/shopping within close reach to encourage more growth. It's come a long way recently, but definitely has a long way to go. Plus Richmond still has plenty of old buildings that can be reused and filled up before the city really needs to look skyward. I think in the next 5-years we'll see a few new highrise projects, but probably nothing in the 700' range. And really, right now I'm fine with the in-fill and reuse projects because they add density, keep character, and help improve Richmond as a very walkable city. Hopefully we'll have something annoucned challenging the Westin within a year or 2.

[hoobo]

North Carolina loosened up its banking laws to allow for ownership of out-of-state banks. Virginia-based banks cannot have operations outside of the state. Banks and banking houses have money to waste on skyscrapers. Normal companies don't. In fact, since banks provide the construction loans for these buildings, they can increase the loan on a building they plan to move into. I doubt General Dynamics or Smithfield Foods cares to have the tallest building on the block when the rents will put a dent on their books.

Back to the RSA Tower. Westin actually has 2 more floors than RSA: 37 vs 35. However, Westin has an 11 foot slab to slab spacing compared to 14 feet for RSA. That's a 100 foot difference. So when habitable space in Westin hits 375 feet, RSA keeps going to almost 500 feet. Also, that crown and spire on the RSA Tower is a lot taller than the one on Westin. It owes to Westin being residential and RSA being office space.

[burt]

Isn't that Yorktown Strata, or whatever the water table level is called, a barrier to really tall structures like 700-footers in downtown Norfolk?

VBTC doesn't have that sort of problem, does it?

Incidentally, Richmond's surrounding counties either have height restrictions or prefer to be free of skyscrapers...though there's talk of high rises at Chesterfield's Watkins Center way out west on US 60.

Meanwhile (and back to topic) the Westin looks great at VBTC and is obviously encouraging more development.

[Padman]

I believe you could build almost as high as you like in downtown Norfolk, given adequate support. Some of the landfill over the old tidal creeks may or may not present a problem. Given the current state of the economy (local and otherwise), I believe that Hoobo's argument holds true. I just happen to believe that things do change and that many of our largest cities are facing some real challenges. Will medium sized cities become more attractive for economic growth? Who knows. The age of corporate consolidation, which has been going on from the '70s until now may or may not have run its course. Communications technology may be reaching a point where face to face business may finally become less important, but we've overestimated that factor before. Also, very tall buildings are no longer a big deal. Many of us don't enjoy working in them--too many restrictions of movement. But they make great locations for apartments, shops, hotels and condos, as well as fine status symbols and civic works of art.

[vdogg]

Isn't that Yorktown Strata, or whatever the water table level is called, a barrier to really tall structures like 700-footers in downtown Norfolk?

VBTC doesn't have that sort of problem, does it?

Incidentally, Richmond's surrounding counties either have height restrictions or prefer to be free of skyscrapers...though there's talk of high rises at Chesterfield's Watkins Center way out west on US 60.

Meanwhile (and back to topic) the Westin looks great at VBTC and is obviously encouraging more development.

[vdogg]

We're not going to see a 700 footer for a long time in Virginia. That is, until banks are willing to provide a loan that would build one. The Westin is going to be the commonwealth's tallest for the foreseeable future.

[beltwayboy08]

I agree with most of your arguments on this subject so far but I disagree here. Not one person in this forum foresaw us getting a 500 footer in HR until it actually happened (as I remember we were all ecstatic at the thought of just 400ft). Things change, often quickly and unexpectedly. This region is finally starting to come to terms with its identity as a truly major metro area. I believe it's not out of the realm of possiblility that a large mixed use project comprised of office space for a large local company combined with condos/hotel could reach the 6-700ft range in the not too distant future. (I'm thinking more on the order of 10 years here.

[tombarnes]

As I may have mentioned earlier in the Washington thread, the chances of Richmond or HR getting a very tall building are good, but one simply never knows what may drive these projects- especially in a murky residential and lending market. I do think that something will happen within ten years, but I couldn't say where at this point. Virginia's conservatism may have held it back in this regard- at least to a certain degree. The market dictates a lot of this, but not always. Hubris and $$$ can conspire to change a skyline. I don't like the idea of towers for their own sake, however. As sexy as it may seem to have a tall building, a tall empty building isn't usually much of a civic ornament.

[hoobo]

I agree with most of your arguments on this subject so far but I disagree here. Not one person in this forum foresaw us getting a 500 footer in HR until it actually happened (as I remember we were all ecstatic at the thought of just 400ft). Things change, often quickly and unexpectedly. This region is finally starting to come to terms with its identity as a truly major metro area. I believe it's not out of the realm of possiblility that a large mixed use project comprised of office space for a large local company combined with condos/hotel could reach the 6-700ft range in the not too distant future. (I'm thinking more on the order of 10 years here.

[beltwayboy08]

As I may have mentioned earlier in the Washington thread, the chances of Richmond or HR getting a very tall building are good, but one simply never knows what may drive these projects- especially in a murky residential and lending market. I do think that something will happen within ten years, but I couldn't say where at this point. Virginia's conservatism may have held it back in this regard- at least to a certain degree. The market dictates a lot of this, but not always. Hubris and $$$ can conspire to change a skyline. I don't like the idea of towers for their own sake, however. As sexy as it may seem to have a tall building, a tall empty building isn't usually much of a civic ornament.

[beltwayboy08]

Westin and Granby are largely residential towers that grew out of the home price boom. So they are a product of economics. Dominion Tower was a bank tower. 150 W Main was able to snag SunTrust as its main tenant. Wachovia will headline a new tower in Norfolk. Charlotte's and Raleigh's tallest are bank buildings.

150 W. Main, AH and Trader are all roughly the same in usable height (12 story office towers on top of 8 story garages). AH Tower and TC happened because VB didn't give up and found a willing partner in AH. Before the tech bubble burst, a REIT flush with money was willing to build TC. Then the money went bye-bye. I thought that an office boom like the one that happened in downtown Norfolk in the 80's would occur after the housing boom ended. Unfortunately, the mortgage crisis has hurt all borrowing including corporate loans. Also, these mortgage firms along with banks and brokerage houses supplying their capital have seen their surplus cash disappear. A lot of these companies were to be the primary tenants in new high-rise offices. Engineering, Mod&Sim, gov't contracting firms are not going to occupy high-rise towers because they don't have the money to do so. These companies form the basis of NoVa and HR's economies. Richmond took a hit with the loss of Wachovia Securities.

I feel that the housing market with trade sideways for at least the next 5 years and that the office market has been hurt for the next couple years from the mortgage crisis fall-out. (Middle of the road, not doomsday) The economy may be okay but it's not the robust economy we were expecting. Also, there still is available land in NoVa, Norfolk, and VB on which to build 400-500 footers for the next 10 - 20 years. Downtown Richmond, probably the best positioned, still has to contend with less expensive suburban markets. Virginia may have the companies and even the high paying jobs, but it doesn't have the high income, high glamor companies. As for mixed use, I see it more like TC and Baltimore's East Harbor than a multi-use building. Maybe I'm wrong and construction costs will drop while rents will hold steady and/or climb to the point where it justifies a 700 footer with 45-50 floors.

[hoobo]

Are we talking about the same Virginia? lol.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/for...0/states/V.html + now, Volkswagen - Audi - Lamborghini.

[beltwayboy08]

VW is an automaker that is bleeding money in the U.S. They are not going to move into a high-rise because they'd bleed even more money. They are moving to Herndon, not Tyson's Corner and not Rosslyn, but Herndon. Take a look at the F-500 companies in Virginia. Do you think CarMax or Circuit City will move into a high-rise office tower? How about the number 2 company on the list, Sprint-Nextel? Verizon and AT&T have the cash, but S-N has nothing. Even Norfolk-Southern squeezed money from the state to keep from relocating to Philadelphia. Of all the companies, Capital One, Dominion Resources, and Genworth Financial are the only ones I can see in a true high-rise tower. Of those: DR is in downtown Richmond, Genworth is in suburban Richmond, and CO is in Tyson's Corner along with Gannett. CO also has big operations in Richmond. That's why Richmond is the most likely candidate. Followed by Tyson's Corner after the Metro is built through there. But you have to also remember that Altria is moving only 200 employees to Richmond, which is 4 or 5 floors of office space. Considering that Wachovia Securities is moving 1000+ employees out, you get a net gain in vacant office space. MeadWestvaco is building a mid-rise, not high-rise, HQ in downtown Richmond. As for Tyson's Corner, the same Metro line will serve Reston and Herndon and their office complexes, which means more competition.

Tyson's also reminds me a lot like the Irvine Business Center. Lots of 10 - 20 story buildings in an office park layout with a good amount of low-rise offices. The older low-rise offices are slowly being replaced with taller buildings. But for now, there are no 30 or 40 story buildings proposed. Only one tall tower (35 stories) is being proposed in the entire county of 3 million fairly affluent residents and strong business climate. That tower is really an ego tower for the developer. If it gets built, others probably will too. But it is stalled because the mortgage crisis has increased vacancies. NoVa is the same way. It probably needs just one 30-40 story tower to get it going on a building spree. The trouble is getting someone with the ego to build it, because right now, rents and construction costs dictate 20 story buildings.

I'm not trying to put down my home state or trying to be pessimistic. I'm just trying to be realistic given the current business climate and office building economics.

[wrldcoupe4]

VW is an automaker that is bleeding money in the U.S. They are not going to move into a high-rise because they'd bleed even more money. They are moving to Herndon, not Tyson's Corner and not Rosslyn, but Herndon. Take a look at the F-500 companies in Virginia. Do you think CarMax or Circuit City will move into a high-rise office tower? How about the number 2 company on the list, Sprint-Nextel? Verizon and AT&T have the cash, but S-N has nothing. Even Norfolk-Southern squeezed money from the state to keep from relocating to Philadelphia. Of all the companies, Capital One, Dominion Resources, and Genworth Financial are the only ones I can see in a true high-rise tower. Of those: DR is in downtown Richmond, Genworth is in suburban Richmond, and CO is in Tyson's Corner along with Gannett. CO also has big operations in Richmond. That's why Richmond is the most likely candidate. Followed by Tyson's Corner after the Metro is built through there. But you have to also remember that Altria is moving only 200 employees to Richmond, which is 4 or 5 floors of office space. Considering that Wachovia Securities is moving 1000+ employees out, you get a net gain in vacant office space. MeadWestvaco is building a mid-rise, not high-rise, HQ in downtown Richmond. As for Tyson's Corner, the same Metro line will serve Reston and Herndon and their office complexes, which means more competition.

[beltwayboy08]

Wow, you sure do a good job of keeping up with things being so far away!

CarMax recently finished a new environmentally friendly HQ in suburbia. Circuit City definitely won't be moving into anything new unless they can figure out how to compete with Best Buy. Cap One recently built a huuuuge corporate campus in West Creek in suburban Richmond, so unless they decide to move the Corporate HQ down 95 then there's not much hope for a highrise there. Dominion's already in a highrise... I've heard they are looking to empty out of their Innsbrook offices and send those folks downtown. Most of their downtown/riverfront space is full and definitely couldn't absorb the employees in Innsbrook, but I see them simply leasing space, not building a new tower. Genworth is in a midrise out near Philip Morris' HQ which is in the old Reynolds HQ, and I imagine Altria will be moving into Reynolds Crossing--walking distance to PMUSA.

Wachovia Securities will stagger its withdrawal out of Riverfront Plaza as to not flood the market with vacant space. Still, Riverfront Plaza is some of the nicest/most coveted Class A space in downtown if not the region so it should be absorbed sooner than later. It could impact a new tower proposal downtown, but the way I understand it, the new tower proposal is more about ego than market conditions.

[wrldcoupe4]

As of right now the tower's height and size are still fluid from what I know.

[beltwayboy08]

As of right now the tower's height and size are still fluid from what I know.

[wrldcoupe4]

Sic Itur Ad Astra - Such is the Way to the Stars

I think the image stays there if you put it on the same line as the link and the motto.