"Bum" Bashing

[Veloise]

...I have had multiple problems with homeless people in various sections of downtown. ...

While the majority of the problems have been minor, they have still been significant to have to call the police department a few times.

... homeless people asking for money, sleeping in our garages, and drinking on the streets. They also contribute to the largest amount of litter and broken glass on State Street to west of Division. ...

[mejane]

Please if you don't live in GR itself and not downtown you don't have to deal and live with the homeless problems. This city has a very high number located in one neighborhood right in the middle of where development is occuring. So unless you want to vote to put a regional homelessness authority for mental health funding then don't complain about our complaining.

[NorthCoast]

The issue of homelessness is a serious one and there is so much more that can be done by groups OTHER than the government to aid them. Grand Rapids has multiple shelters, kitchens, non-profit social organizations, and of course churches. The options are there. But the real point of the matter here is if the city is serious about drawing families back into the city and not just college students and empty nesters than a firmer stand has to be taken. We can expect adults to deal with the homeless in a proper manner but you hardly can expect young children to be mature enough to do the same. You can't tell them to just deal with it. Like it or not, if downtown is ever going to become truely revived in every sense than this is an issue that is going to have to be resolved.

[mejane]

The downtown area isn't conducive to raising children. Is the city really trying to lure families to the downtown area? Isn't that what all the great GR neighborhoods are for? Downtowns everywhere inherently attract college students, singles, young professionals, empty-nesters, couples without children - who are drawn to what downtowns offer in the same way that neighborhoods with sidewalks and yards attract families with kids. If you want to bring your children to live in the core city, then extra vigilance for their safety may be appropriate. But that's on you.

I find some of these arguments as silly as those who complain and carry on when the house they build on a cliff falls down due to a mudslide; or their home on the water where natural barrier reefs have been eroded by overdevelpment is destroyed by storms; or people who insist on building and living in flood plans lose their homes to river flooding that occurs each year. Then there are those homes built in the woods where there are no fire hydrants, or darn, those pesky animals who want to live in their natural habitats but I want my home here instead!

Look, you choose where to live and you deal with the consequences of your choice. Or, we all do through increases in insurance rates. Currently right now, in Heartside and the adjoining area, you deal with the missions and problems associated with homelessness. Don't like it? Find a positive, humanity affirming solution, or choose to live elsewhere.

[Kib]

Interesting thread... If you'll allow me to chime in on a couple of items:

First, Welcome to the real world, my Grand Rapids friends. There's not a city in our country that isn't trying to cope with dealing with the homeless. Right now I'm sitting in Portland, perhaps one of the more enlightened places in the world as far as attempting to get a handle on things, yet it is a daily struggle. Not even a half block away from my admittedly high $$$ condo are camped people in doorways with nothing more than what fits in a shopping cart. While the city fathers have passed every kind of ordinance imaginable there still remains men, women and children to fend for themselves each and every night on the streets. A purely legal answer will not be found.

There is also a sizable community of agencies, non-profits, and religious that attempt to ease the situation with varying degrees of success. There's no lack of trying.

What is helpful is to put away you're preconcived notions as to the why's. There are professionals with far more insight than I that are hard pressed to offer an explaination, but what you won't hear from them are labels such as "bums", nor the "child molester" tag flippantly tossed about, you won't hear from them that it is simply a "motivation" problem, nor will you hear that one should ponder the problem from the emotion of fear.

Like I said, I don't have any answers other than to say I'm sorry that growing up can be uncomfortable, and please keep up the thoughful dialog because in many respects, it's the only way our society is going to make any progress.

Thx

[wolverine]

Man, I wish Saginaw's homeless problem was as simple as Grand Rapids.

At least the average age of your homeless population isn't nine years old.

[suydam]

Drinking on the streets: it's OK at the Local First party or various Celebration/Festival events (for those wearing khakis).

[gvsusean]

The downtown area isn't conducive to raising children. Is the city really trying to lure families to the downtown area? Isn't that what all the great GR neighborhoods are for? Downtowns everywhere inherently attract college students, singles, young professionals, empty-nesters, couples without children - who are drawn to what downtowns offer in the same way that neighborhoods with sidewalks and yards attract families with kids. If you want to bring your children to live in the core city, then extra vigilance for their safety may be appropriate. But that's on you.

I find some of these arguments as silly as those who complain and carry on when the house they build on a cliff falls down due to a mudslide; or their home on the water where natural barrier reefs have been eroded by overdevelpment is destroyed by storms; or people who insist on building and living in flood plans lose their homes to river flooding that occurs each year. Then there are those homes built in the woods where there are no fire hydrants, or darn, those pesky animals who want to live in their natural habitats but I want my home here instead!

Look, you choose where to live and you deal with the consequences of your choice. Or, we all do through increases in insurance rates. Currently right now, in Heartside and the adjoining area, you deal with the missions and problems associated with homelessness. Don't like it? Find a positive, humanity affirming solution, or choose to live elsewhere.

[wolverine]

^ Uh, that's a foolish way to look at things. That's not the way the world works.

[Allison Slater]

I'm pretty sure it is illegal to cuss in front of women & children. Not a commonly acted upon law I'm sure, but in the case mentioned above, I'm sure it would be used.

P.S.: I need to expand my vocabulary beyond 'sure' <<

[pr sc]

Another thing to consider is that people in this country (except the Amish/Mennonites) take care of their own anymore. So many people want their comfortable life without embarrasing relatives, etc., and they just do not want to share. So, if anyone has to pick up on this, it's going to be the general public because government agencies do not personally care. The people working soup kitchens and missions DO care. And, I believe they do all they can to find a way to get homeless back on their feet. They don't just feed/clothe them and throw them out. Sometimes it works and it's worth it.

[gvsusean]

^ Uh, that's a foolish way to look at things. That's not the way the world works.

[Parhelion]

This discussion makes me think of the whole 'broken windows' theory that was discussed in the The Tipping Point; regardless of whether you believe the theory is 100% correct, the prevalence of mentally ill/drunk people in certain areas gives the impression that the area is unkempt/unsafe and that no one cares.

[GRDadof3]

This discussion makes me think of the whole 'broken windows' theory that was discussed in the The Tipping Point; regardless of whether you believe the theory is 100% correct, the prevalence of mentally ill/drunk people in certain areas gives the impression that the area is unkempt/unsafe and that no one cares.

[wolverine]

i believe it is going to happen... sooner or later.

[darajeanne]

Douglas J Aveda Institute is new to the Heartside area of course and we are still trying to find our spot in this community. We are half a block away from Mel Trotter, one block from Degage, and we have cosmetology classes from 9 am until 10 pm most days. We have not had many incidents involving our neighbors in this community. A few people have wandered in (mainly during the evening hours) asking off the wall questions, testing the products that aren't testers, who don't seem threatening but who do make the students and employees a bit nervous.

I have instructed my staff at the front desk to use the panic button if they ever feel threatened (they haven't), but to otherwise treat every guest the same. If they're browsing retail, go over and answer questions, let them try things out. We always have at least 2 people working the front desk so there is always support if needed.

There was one series of about 3 days when one gentleman would come in and hang out, talking our ears off for about an hour each time. I think we all are a little too nice sometimes, we just stand there and smile as he talks and can never get up the courage to ask him to leave. He did try to steal our magazines once but we were able to discourage him from that. However, nothing bad has happened and we have been here for almost 6 months now.

When people come in for tours of the school and their informational interview on the program we offer, one of the most commonly asked questions we get is "Is it safe down here?". We're happy to be able to answer that it is indeed quite safe, but are sure to insist that students never leave the building alone when it's dark and to also be well aware of their surroundings. This is good advice no matter where you are!

In truth, most of our incidents here at our new school have involved vandalism and trespassing on our all-too-accessible roof .

We hosted the women of Mel Trotter in April and will do so again in September to receive complimentary haircuts from our students and instructors. The first event was a great success and we're looking forward to seeing them again.

Just my experiences thus-far in Heartside.

Dara (Guest Services Coach at the Institute)

[tamias6]

Should this thread be moved to the coffee House?

[mejane]

Should this thread be moved to the coffee House?

[gvsusean]

It wasn't so much your comment regarding the homeless specifically, rather the "You can't be here, because you haven't invested." It's like saying, you can't drive on my street because you didn't pay the taxes that paved it.

The homeless (as people) can be anywhere they want. They can linger in a plaza if they want assuming they are abiding to laws regarding loitering. You can't just give them boot because you feel they are disgrace. Where would you put them? These people don't have a future, not here or anywhere, the least we can let them do is survive. Yes, that's a pain in the ass to deal with, no one should ever deny that, but what solution is possibly out there to make them suddenly disappear into the contributing society.

That's what I mean when I say, "that's not the way this country works" Its so simple for you to forget that they are actual people, isn't it?

Don't ever think Grand Rapids can be an exception. Even the most successful cities deal with the homeless.

[Michi]

I suggest you check my woodtv link at the number is much higher...

[DSchoon]

The downtown area isn't conducive to raising children. Is the city really trying to lure families to the downtown area? Isn't that what all the great GR neighborhoods are for? Downtowns everywhere inherently attract college students, singles, young professionals, empty-nesters, couples without children - who are drawn to what downtowns offer in the same way that neighborhoods with sidewalks and yards attract families with kids. If you want to bring your children to live in the core city, then extra vigilance for their safety may be appropriate. But that's on you.

I find some of these arguments as silly as those who complain and carry on when the house they build on a cliff falls down due to a mudslide; or their home on the water where natural barrier reefs have been eroded by overdevelpment is destroyed by storms; or people who insist on building and living in flood plans lose their homes to river flooding that occurs each year. Then there are those homes built in the woods where there are no fire hydrants, or darn, those pesky animals who want to live in their natural habitats but I want my home here instead!

Look, you choose where to live and you deal with the consequences of your choice. Or, we all do through increases in insurance rates. Currently right now, in Heartside and the adjoining area, you deal with the missions and problems associated with homelessness. Don't like it? Find a positive, humanity affirming solution, or choose to live elsewhere.

[wolverine]

^ That, for the most part is a valid argument, but one thing that sets the homeless apart from erratic skateboarders and wild drunken teenagers is that the homeless are sick or mentally ill. I'd seriously classify 100% of all homeless people with some mental illness because they are obviously all depressed. Not only do they not have much of a future to look forward to, but no one wants them around. Therefore, to the homeless, they really have nothing to lose, they will at time have poor behavior, but how would one go about punishing them? You can give a skateboarder or drunk a citation, but what would you give a homeless person?

My point is, there's no sense in doing anything to get rid of them, unless they are completely overstepping boundaries like assault for example. Why? Because if we arrested them all for drunken behavior or harassment, we'd be paying for their jail time (in our already crowded jails) and they are just going to be let out anyway and start making trouble all over again.

I stand firmly on my argument that there is NOTHING Grand Rapids can do to resolve their homeless problem. Why should this even be an argument anyway, if some of you actually believed you could successfully kick them out, every city would have followed suit by now.

If any of you have solutions to how they can be cleared from the downtown, please tell me.

- Be ethical and within the law. They do have rights.

- Who will pay?

- Where will they go?

- How will this benefit them?

- Is it practical?

- Is it long term?

I'd just like to add one more thing that Grand Rapids has a reputation for being an excellent city. I've never heard anyone complain about homeless downtown. I've seen a few here and there, but I've accepted it as a typical problem in society. Image should be the least your worries. The fact that GR has a great downtown is already set in stone.

[TheCityGuy]

No one wants there to be homeless people around. It's not that we dislike them as individuals, but more so what they represent about our society.

My question is.....

What are all the missions/shelters doing to help these people? Are they helping them find jobs/dwellings? Or do they just give them food and a place to sleep for a few nights. Are they actually providing mental health/substance abuse counseling?

Unless there are incentives for the homeless, or programs designed to address whatever ails them, then I think many of them will choose to stay in their rut as long as they get a hot bowl of soup and a few dollars from John Q. Citizen so they can buy a bottle of vodka.

[GRDadof3]

^ That, for the most part is a valid argument, but one thing that sets the homeless apart from erratic skateboarders and wild drunken teenagers is that the homeless are sick or mentally ill. I'd seriously classify 100% of all homeless people with some mental illness because they are obviously all depressed. Not only do they not have much of a future to look forward to, but no one wants them around. Therefore, to the homeless, they really have nothing to lose, they will at time have poor behavior, but how would one go about punishing them? You can give a skateboarder or drunk a citation, but what would you give a homeless person?

My point is, there's no sense in doing anything to get rid of them, unless they are completely overstepping boundaries like assault for example. Why? Because if we arrested them all for drunken behavior or harassment, we'd be paying for their jail time (in our already crowded jails) and they are just going to be let out anyway and start making trouble all over again.

I stand firmly on my argument that there is NOTHING Grand Rapids can do to resolve their homeless problem. Why should this even be an argument anyway, if some of you actually believed you could successfully kick them out, every city would have followed suit by now.

If any of you have solutions to how they can be cleared from the downtown, please tell me.

- Be ethical and within the law. They do have rights.

- Who will pay?

- Where will they go?

- How will this benefit them?

- Is it practical?

- Is it long term?

I'd just like to add one more thing that Grand Rapids has a reputation for being an excellent city. I've never heard anyone complain about homeless downtown. I've seen a few here and there, but I've accepted it as a typical problem in society. Image should be the least your worries. The fact that GR has a great downtown is already set in stone.

[Rizzo]

Schoon said it great.

I'd still wonder if the same people investing in Heartside are investing in keeping these mission in the neighborhood. Its either the fact that there's no other reasonable alternative or they haven't been as impact on the area as thought.