The Edison

[jumboman]

When I first heard of this project, I actually envisioned the tower at this corner as having the original facade on the bottom 2-3 floors and the steel and glass structure going up from there. Then, hearing about the staff's gripes about the building condition, I came to the reality that maybe it's not the building that is that significant but rather the tradition of the actual businesses.

I actually work for an engineering company in the DC area that does a lot of roof and facade restoration work; and it almost always comes down to money as to how much restoration and how much replacement takes place. Also consider that the final design is not complete as far as I know, and a lot of advances have been made in replicating historic building looks, maybe it could still be incorporated - even with a complete demo (save costs there and use them for the "historic" construction?). But I agree at heart with your hopes. In a perfect world...

[Francesca]

Just to clarify, the rumor that historic rehabilitation costs so much more than new construction is just plain unwarranted. While there is the exception, more often, historic rehab provides substantial cost savings.

Not even taking into consideration the dollars available for historic rehabs through tools like state and federal tax credits, facade grants, etc., that are not available for new construction, some interesting statistics on rehab versus new construction from the National Trust for Historic Preservation:

* Historic rehab costs are roughly the same as new construction.

* If no demolition is required, a major rehabilitation will cost between 12% less and 9% more than new construction.

* If construction of a new building requires demolition of a significant existing structure - like, oh, say, A BLOCK - the cost savings from rehab will be between 3% and 16%.

* Dollars spent on materials circulate through our community only once...while dollars spent on local labor circulate through our community up to six times.

* The greenest building is one that's already built.

* Life spans for new buildings are often 30-40 years versus more than 100 years for most historic structures.

* Less energy and resources are required to rehab existing buildings than to demolish and replace them with comparable new construction.

* Rehabilitation is environmentally responsible as it conserves more than it consumes or tosses in the landfill - 25%-40% of the new material being added to landfills is demolition and construction waste...and demolishing a typical two-story commercial building eliminates all the environmental benefits of recycling more than 1,344,000 million aluminum cans. That figure is just depressing.

I hate to be a gloomy girl, but, IMHO, that building IS in very large part of what makes Cooper's great. You can't force or replicate character and patina - that's called North Hills. Everytime I walk by there, I think about those segregation doors and it always sets me to pondering about what that was like to live through, and all the people who passed through both of those doors. While a painful chapter in our city's history, we need those kind of reminders - like a wise one once said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

There's an amazing opportunity there for someone willing to be creative, but I agree that plans are not finalized, and hopefully with the state of financing like it is, there's a little time for thoughtful consideration and less rushing to judgement.

I'll step down off my soapbox now. This block and Garland Jones/Lawyers really have my knickers in a bunch!

[Jones_]

Stay on the soapbox please . I never have good stats at my fingertips, but have long known these numbers to hold. As the cost of new materials goes up and up, these numbers will favor saving existing structures more and more. I agree on Coopers atmosphere 100%. No new Coopers will be even a shred like the current one. I have always been very fond of the Isaacs corner and have focused on those, with Lawyers and GJ being my next focus. What to do? Present some cost figures to the fiscally conservative county commissioners that favor keeping the old buildings. Do any historic preservation organizations have the ability to produce rough numbers?

[Gard]

^

They could just as easily go through Habitat for Humanity's building recycling program and let them salvage the useable parts of the building, which would bring the developer a HUGE charitable tax credit, mitigating the rise in materials cost, so there is no guarantee that the buildings will be saved. Also, Coopers wants a new building, so saving it for their sakes is a moot point, as they don't want to stay in it anyhow. Oh and btw, I recently emailed the county and they replied back that the demolition of the Lawyers and GJB is already paid for, so its a done deal, GJB and the Lawyers building are history, its only a matter of when now.

[Jones_]

Not to argue but the savings of going to Habitat is going to be on the order of a few hundreds to a few thousands of dollars (its not a credit, its a write-off). The value in saving those existing structures is the cost of the new minus the cost upfitting to the same standard. Opportunity costs are hard to quantify as client needs and value to surrounding structures figures in as well, not to mention meeting client needs at another site of unknown character (i.e. what if you built elsewhere).

On Coopers, the new owner stated in the N&O that he is investing in all new equipment without regard to the future of the building. He did not mention needing a new building that I recall, though the guy who just sold it may have.

[Gard]

If you want to get technical about it...

Property donated to a qualifying group (of which Habitat for Humanity is), is, according to the Internal Revenue Code, to be valued at market value. As as the price of construction materials go up, so will the market value of the materials these buildings are made of. I would highly doubt the bricks, copper and other materials in this building would be valued at a few hundred or thousands of dollars.

Contributions made to public charities/organizations of property (be it land, cash, buildings and their parts, etc.) may not exceed 30 percent of AGI for the year. Anything beyond that will be credited towards the following years. If the value of the materials puts his total charitable contributions over the 30% mark for the year, he gets a tax credit for following years to use against potentially higher income.

In this case, Edison is 4 different buildings, so if they build around the older buildings first, Coopers wouldn't have to go anywheres while they build the new building. Once Coopers moves into the new one, they tear down the old one. There are also big tax advantages for Coopers in this as well. All the new equipment they buy gets a depreciation deduction for x years (how many years depends on the type of equipment, etc.). I don't recall if Coopers owns the building they are in or not, but if they sold the building to the developer and the developer charges them rent, they get to deduct that rent as part of their operating expenses.

[Jones_]

I don't have the tax code in front of me but info from the Habitat website reads just like any other charitable contribution:

"All items donated to Central Oklahoma Habitat for Humanity, Inc. are deductible for income tax purposes at their present fair market value. Internal Revenue Code places the responsibility for estimating the "fair market value" upon the donor rather than the agency receiving the gift. The local office of Internal Revenue Service advises that "fair market value" is interpreted as the price a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept."

Copper flashing and gutters, wires etc might fetch a few thousand dollars, floor boards maybe some, bricks, almost nothing.... Even if all this was 100,000 dollars, it can't touch the present constructed value of the structure sitting on the site.

Not ever having donated enough to get involved in this I still think the word "credit" you bolded refers to rolling over the deduction, the deduction for the property donated in a particular year. Deductions don't magically turn into credits because you rolled them over. If I brought my coat to Goodwill, and valued it at 30 dollars, I cannot deduct $30 from my tax liability, I can deduct $30 from schedule A for arriving ultimately at my taxable income. The tax saved would depend on the tax bracket you are in.

If you want to get technical about it...

Property donated to a qualifying group (of which Habitat for Humanity is), is, according to the Internal Revenue Code, to be valued at market value. As as the price of construction materials go up, so will the market value of the materials these buildings are made of. I would highly doubt the bricks, copper and other materials in this building would be valued at a few hundred or thousands of dollars.

Contributions made to public charities/organizations of property (be it land, cash, buildings and their parts, etc.) may not exceed 30 percent of AGI for the year. Anything beyond that will be credited towards the following years. If the value of the materials puts his total charitable contributions over the 30% mark for the year, he gets a tax credit for following years to use against potentially higher income.

In this case, Edison is 4 different buildings, so if they build around the older buildings first, Coopers wouldn't have to go anywheres while they build the new building. Once Coopers moves into the new one, they tear down the old one. There are also big tax advantages for Coopers in this as well. All the new equipment they buy gets a depreciation deduction for x years (how many years depends on the type of equipment, etc.). I don't recall if Coopers owns the building they are in or not, but if they sold the building to the developer and the developer charges them rent, they get to deduct that rent as part of their operating expenses.

on

[Gard]

Not ever having donated enough to get involved in this I still think the word "credit" you bolded refers to rolling over the deduction, the deduction for the property donated in a particular year. Deductions don't magically turn into credits because you rolled them over. If I brought my coat to Goodwill, and valued it at 30 dollars, I cannot deduct $30 from my tax liability, I can deduct $30 from schedule A for arriving ultimately at my taxable income. The tax saved would depend on the tax bracket you are in.

The Habitat for Humanity site reads as it does because most of its donations come from private citizens, who are generally much less informed about tax rules than businesses are. Being credited in this case refers to the tax being credited to future years, much like if you were to overpay a bill and you get a credit back on your bill the following month. A coat and "real property" as the IRS defines land, buildings and their materials as are calculated in different ways. Real estate and everything attached to it plays by a completely different set of rules, especially for businesses. Businesses don't account for taxes in the same way an individual does. While individuals deduct for AGI and then post AGI, businesses have to subtract everything directly from profits and what they subtract is based on the given IRS formula for each category. From there, the remainder after all items have been deducted is what determines what tax bracket a company is in.

Actually glad you brought up the tax stuff. As much as I hate the subject, its been good practice for my CPA exam. Cheers!

[ChiefJoJo]

Sandreuter has purchased the property for Edison. FYI.

[Jones_]

Had an interest in Sandreuter since the Powerhouse Plaza and Powerhouse Square projects came up lately. West has closed 34 out of 170 units so far. I thought they had bagged more sales than that. I put this post in Edison because I would imagine sales at West will impact how soon Sandreuter can get going on Edison, much like I think the Reynolds difficulties getting the Raleigh going is tied to slow sales at the Quorum.

See more thoughts in a more relevant thread...

[orulz]

A huge project showed up on Bidclerk yesterday for Raleigh. As best as I can tell, it fits the description of the Edison pretty closely. Looks like they're looking to hire a GC? I'm certain they don't have financing lined up, but they say they want to start construction in January 2011.

Most interestingly, it gives a bit more detail about what this complex will include.

The description:

Site work and new construction of a mixed-use development in Raleigh. Design plans call for the construction of a 1,570,900-square-foot mixed-use condominium development that will include two, 38-story towers and two, 29-story towers rising out of a shared nine-story base. The project contains 18,000 square feet of commercial space, 32,000 square feet of ground floor retail space, 576,000 square feet of office space, a maximum of 640 dwelling units, and possibly a hotel with a maximum of 320 hotel units and eight levels of parking deck containing 1,706 parking spaces.

For one, I find 32,000 square feet of retail space to be disappointingly small for a 1.5 million square foot complex.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

A huge project showed up on Bidclerk yesterday for Raleigh. As best as I can tell, it fits the description of the Edison pretty closely. Looks like they're looking to hire a GC? I'm certain they don't have financing lined up, but they say they want to start construction in January 2011.

Most interestingly, it gives a bit more detail about what this complex will include.

The description:

For one, I find 32,000 square feet of retail space to be disappointingly small for a 1.5 million square foot complex.

How in the world did you find out about this website/information? Are you a subscriber? Would you recommend a subscription to others?

Great job! Thank you!

[RALNATIVE]

For one, I find 32,000 square feet of retail space to be disappointingly small for a 1.5 million square foot complex.

More office space or hotel rooms to supplement the retail space?

[Jones_]

Given the obvious need for hotel rooms (I have folks coming from Atlanta that said Marriott and Sheraton were booked...they went with the Clarion on two weeks notice), I don't understand why its always "possible" hotel. 640 condos at any price now would be a tough sell, but I am sure Sandreuter wants them high-end....they'd have to be to pay off all that concrete and steel. Instead of a 29 story tower across from 101 Cafe, how about an 8 story apartment building with a ground floor sandwich shop to compliment city market and Artspace, and then a hotel of historic design (or not...an Aloft design would cool too)and say 12 stories facing Moore Square and Angelos, and then where Clyde Coopers is go for like 50-60 stories of office space, and then wrap some condos around the 4 old buildings at Martin/Wilmington and upfit those with some cool restaurant space to properly serve, workers, hotel guest and residents alike.

It is interesting to see movement on this, though I will never be convinced Sandreuter "gets it" when I see a building like West...nice building and all, but sighted so poorly. I sense a distinct *want* on his part to build the building(s) he wants to build with little or no care as to the where, the context etc.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Any updates on this?

Exactly what streets is this proposed? Is this the lot on the south side of Bank of america?

I am confused about what projects are proposed in downtown raleigh right now. Many of these threads are so old, I don't know what is what??????????

Please someone in the know update everything!

Thanks

[Jones_]

Edison is 4 towers proposed for the block bounded by Wilmington, Blount, Martin and Davie (block with Clyde Coopers). Charter Square is immediately south of Bank of America/One Hannover. Both have city backed parking decks and nothing else yet.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

Edison is 4 towers proposed for the block bounded by Wilmington, Blount, Martin and Davie (block with Clyde Coopers). Charter Square is immediately south of Bank of America/One Hannover. Both have city backed parking decks and nothing else yet.

Thanks jones. I have a window seat over charter square. What are the specs and time frame on this tower?

I hope that once they start building this tower...they find a space for the ice rink. I love watching the kids and adults play hockey and skating! This should be in raleigh every winter! Great addition IMO. With a chance of snow this weekend, the rink might be hopping!

[RALNATIVE]

A huge project showed up on Bidclerk yesterday for Raleigh. As best as I can tell, it fits the description of the Edison pretty closely. Looks like they're looking to hire a GC? I'm certain they don't have financing lined up, but they say they want to start construction in January 2011.

Most interestingly, it gives a bit more detail about what this complex will include.

The description:

For one, I find 32,000 square feet of retail space to be disappointingly small for a 1.5 million square foot complex.

Well this complex will also have a hotel component and 18,000 sq feet of commercial space. I would much rather have more office space than retail space. My understanding is that the office space will be Class A space which may support a large corporation as the anchor tenant. Downtown Raleigh needs this much more than it needs a huge influx of retail.

[Jones_]

Heelsfan, I think I read a snippit somewhere that said the ice rink is not in Charter Square's footprint leaving open the possibility that it could operate in the same spot when CS eventually gets built. Edison is obviously still very much in flux and probably looking at a 10+ year overall timeline to buildout (allowing for economic downturns, demand in Raleigh for Class A space etc.). Its as good a potential headquarters location as any in our downtown but I have yet to read about anyone looking to relocate South, let alone NC or Raleigh. I agree retail will need more jobs and rooftops downtown to precede it. Blount, Wilmington and Davie are already situated with retail, and in my opinion retail clusters work better than a thin scattering all over the place, so Edison should carefully consider its context in our downtown as it tweaks its long range plans and not just focus on its miserable decision in locating West and its retail space and subsequent inability to fill that retail. (same developer for those who don't know...also did Dawson and Powerhouse Square).

[Jones_]

Heelsfan, I think I read a snippit somewhere that said the ice rink is not in Charter Square's footprint leaving open the possibility that it could operate in the same spot when CS eventually gets built. Edison is obviously still very much in flux and probably looking at a 10+ year overall timeline to buildout (allowing for economic downturns, demand in Raleigh for Class A space etc.). Its as good a potential headquarters location as any in our downtown but I have yet to read about anyone looking to relocate South, let alone NC or Raleigh. I agree retail will need more jobs and rooftops downtown to precede it. Blount, Wilmington and Davie are already situated with retail, and in my opinion retail clusters work better than a thin scattering all over the place, so Edison should carefully consider its context in our downtown as it tweaks its long range plans and not just focus on its miserable decision in locating West and its retail space and subsequent inability to fill that retail. (same developer for those who don't know...also did Dawson and Powerhouse Square).

Of course as soon as I say nobody is looking this article pops up mentioning both Edison and Charter Square.

[Gard]

Of course as soon as I say nobody is looking this article pops up mentioning both Edison and Charter Square.

I was just reading about that...if both of these "mystery companies" wind up in Raleigh, it would be a HUGE coup for the city and an overall good past year for NC as a whole, with the addition of the recent announcement of Electrolux relocating its North American HQ to Charlotte. Though the article stated that the smaller of the two companies is rumored to be Fannie Mae, I would not be surprised if it was possibly Fidelity, given the hefty presence they have here already. The other one being rumored to be Radio Shack would be a perfect fit too, given they are a technology-oriented retailer and we have such a huge tech sector here..they could be just the jolt we need to kick start downtown projects again.

[JeffC]

Link to the article?

[Gard]

Link to the article?

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/real_estate/story/244703.html

[Jones_]

Link to the article?

Sorry, I put it up there but it didn't take for some reason...

[Merboy]

I'm in love with the Edison project and giddy at the prospect of Radio Shack possibly moving HQ to Raleigh.

I looked online for some updates on how the Edison is coming along and if we're still getting it, and if so when. But all the articles I've found were from 2008 at the latest. What's the general knowledge of this project's status? Or even the status of the two mystery companies?

<3 Merboy