Hey, what's that (and other miscellanea)?

[Cookin_peacocks]

On 9/20/2021 at 10:48 AM, wingbert said:

You’re right!  The google streetview car must’ve driven through right after it came down.  Orange barrels are still there and everything.

Walked by today, and while it's hard to see in the picture, you can faintly see the outline of where the skywalk attached to the Browning.

 

 

 

[GR_Urbanist]

Two things from this evening (too dim and rainy to get photos):

*The NW corner of Lafayette and Cherry, across from St. Mary's. It looks like that little 1960 or 70s era building,  of about 1 -1/2 stories, has gone to the wrecking ball. I'm not sure it belonged to the hospital. I can only assume that it did, so I'm not holding out hope for anything other than more surface lots.

* The GRCC Ford Fieldhouse looks like it is getting some major work done, at least on the exterior. I cant find any obvious answers for what are the plans there .

[Prankster]

3 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Two things from this evening (too dim and rainy to get photos):

*The NW corner of Lafayette and Cherry, across from St. Mary's. It looks like that little 1960 or 70s era building,  of about 1 -1/2 stories, has gone to the wrecking ball. I'm not sure it belonged to the hospital. I can only assume that it did, so I'm not holding out hope for anything other than more surface lots.

* The GRCC Ford Fieldhouse looks like it is getting some major work done, at least on the exterior. I cant find any obvious answers for what are the plans there .

For the GRCC fieldhouse, they have put a lot of money into renovating the interior. My daughter plays basketball for them and she said that everything is new with the court, etc. 

[walker]

On 10/21/2021 at 7:00 PM, GR_Urbanist said:

Two things from this evening (too dim and rainy to get photos):

*The NW corner of Lafayette and Cherry, across from St. Mary's. It looks like that little 1960 or 70s era building,  of about 1 -1/2 stories, has gone to the wrecking ball. I'm not sure it belonged to the hospital. I can only assume that it did, so I'm not holding out hope for anything other than more surface lots.

That was the Lafayette Medical Center which opened in 1960.  It was once a prime example of a mid-century modern medical building.

Here's a good "then and now" slide show of the building and something about its architectural history:

Lafayette Medical Center

This was the first stop on mail route #390 back when I was a mail carrier.  I was assigned this route often when I was first just a substitute because the regular old mailman had a gimpy leg and took a lot of time off.  Later I was the permanent swing man for what was mostly the southern portion of what became the Heritage Hill District and route 390 was one of my five routes.  Mail carriers rotate a day off per six day week and the swing man covers the routes on their off days.    

Edited October 29, 2021 by walker
for clarity and to fix typo

[ZAP!]

I've got a generally relevant question for all you UrbanPlaneteers.

For ages and ages, I've heard rumors about a system of "secret" underground tunnels, storefronts, and whatnot in Grand Rapids. Everybody's uncle or friend works for the city and got exclusive access, but no one ever has any photos or concrete evidence. Just now, I even saw reference to them again on the GR subreddit.

There's nothing to this, right? I can't imagine there'd be anything beyond the odd passageway between adjacent buildings, areaway, coal chute, etc. Certainly not anything resembling a larger system or complex.

[joeDowntown]

1 hour ago, ZAP! said:

I've got a generally relevant question for all you UrbanPlaneteers.

For ages and ages, I've heard rumors about a system of "secret" underground tunnels, storefronts, and whatnot in Grand Rapids. Everybody's uncle or friend works for the city and got exclusive access, but no one ever has any photos or concrete evidence. Just now, I even saw reference to them again on the GR subreddit.

There's nothing to this, right? I can't imagine there'd be anything beyond the odd passageway between adjacent buildings, areaway, coal chute, etc. Certainly not anything resembling a larger system or complex.

Are they maybe referring to the gypsum mines? There was a “tunnel” near the Rowe, but I don’t think it was a secret(didn’t they use it for parking?)?  I haven’t heard this story before,, but interested to learn more. 

Joe

[ZAP!]

1 hour ago, joeDowntown said:

Are they maybe referring to the gypsum mines? There was a “tunnel” near the Rowe, but I don’t think it was a secret(didn’t they use it for parking?)?  I haven’t heard this story before,, but interested to learn more. 

Joe

If I recall, the greater legend is that the street level was raised to prevent flooding, and existing storefronts went underground (physically). Over time, they would get covered up and forgotten, but they still exist under our feet to this very day! ~spooky noises~

I think it's probably based on other cities where this actually happened, like Seattle.

[thebeerqueer]

1 hour ago, ZAP! said:

If I recall, the greater legend is that the street level was raised to prevent flooding, and existing storefronts went underground (physically). Over time, they would get covered up and forgotten, but they still exist under our feet to this very day! ~spooky noises~

I think it's probably based on other cities where this actually happened, like Seattle.

Isn't this how we got Big O's and Raggs to Riches/Ambiance??

[wingbert]

5 hours ago, ZAP! said:

I've got a generally relevant question for all you UrbanPlaneteers.

For ages and ages, I've heard rumors about a system of "secret" underground tunnels, storefronts, and whatnot in Grand Rapids. Everybody's uncle or friend works for the city and got exclusive access, but no one ever has any photos or concrete evidence. Just now, I even saw reference to them again on the GR subreddit.

There's nothing to this, right? I can't imagine there'd be anything beyond the odd passageway between adjacent buildings, areaway, coal chute, etc. Certainly not anything resembling a larger system or complex.

I’ve heard similar things about how you could get across much of downtown underground through a  system of connected tunnels, basements, parking garages, etc.  

I assumed there was likely some truth to it combined with a bit of urban legend.  The kind of thing people who wanted to appear in the know would repeat as fact but hadn’t actually experienced for themselves.  The story always ended with some variation on how it had been sealed up and you couldn’t find it anymore (of course).

NGL, it would be awesome if true though.

[Cookin_peacocks]

2 hours ago, ZAP! said:

If I recall, the greater legend is that the street level was raised to prevent flooding, and existing storefronts went underground (physically). Over time, they would get covered up and forgotten, but they still exist under our feet to this very day! ~spooky noises~

I think it's probably based on other cities where this actually happened, like Seattle.

I had JUST talked to a construction worker who told me the same thing about the old press building. He said he saw it for himself and it was a whole block buried and now being excavated due to the recent development.

 

Don't know if I believed him, but man do I want to.

 

I do know a tunnel exists under Ottawa. I've been through it very recently.

[ZAP!]

10 minutes ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

I do know a tunnel exists under Ottawa. I've been through it very recently.

"Tunnel to Chase Bank", I presume? I've seen it before, but never had reason to actually use it.

Other tunnels I know to actually exist go from The Pantlind to DeVos Place, I think from DeVos Place to the ramp below Calder Plaza, and then on to the Federal Building. I don't know if any are publicly accessible, but I have seen photos of them. Somewhere, sometime.

There's also the steam network crisscrossing downtown, but I don't know if any are carried through human-sized tunnels. I think some tunnels in the Butterworth complex. Gypsum mines, of course.

Edited November 4, 2021 by ZAP!

[Cookin_peacocks]

2 minutes ago, ZAP! said:

"Tunnel to Chase Bank", I presume? I've seen it before, but never had reason to actually use it.

Other tunnels I know to actually exist go from The Pantlind to DeVos Place, I think from DeVos Place to the ramp below Calder Plaza, and then on to the Federal Building. I don't know if any are publicly accessible, but I have seen photos of them. Somewhere, sometime.

I know some of those tunnels exist, but I thought the one under Monroe got sealed. Could be very wrong.

 

We had tunnels under our school that were rumored to be for nuclear war bunkers. I've actually seen them, but I wonder if the legend about them was bigger than reality in terms of how long they were, ect

[ZAP!]

Found a Reddit thread talking about some specific rumors, particularly around the area of The Pantlind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/16mnrb/storm_drainstunnels/c7xgccq

EDIT: And another *two,

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/1ogivq/where_are_cool_hidden_areas_of_gr/ccvhnmw

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/3azhbf/grand_rapids_urban_myths/cshuv5w

Edited November 4, 2021 by ZAP!
Additions 2

[joeDowntown]

I knew about the open areas under the sidewalks, and the city giving incentives to fill them in. Never heard about store fronts under the Pantlind that are still intact. If this is true, we need some photos! Sounds like a cool find.

Joe

[walker]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:31 AM, ZAP! said:

If I recall, the greater legend is that the street level was raised to prevent flooding, and existing storefronts went underground (physically). Over time, they would get covered up and forgotten, but they still exist under our feet to this very day! ~spooky noises~

I think it's probably based on other cities where this actually happened, like Seattle.

What is now Monroe but was then called Canal Street was raised about four feet but unlike what I think happened in Seattle, the buildings themselves in Grand Rapids were raised and new foundations built underneath them.  In Seattle I think when they raised the streets, the second floors of the buildings just became the ground floors and the former first floors and basements became basements and sub-basements.  Someone might easily be able to prove me wrong but I think any tunnels or old storefronts that might be underground now in Grand Rapids are not there from when they raised the street level. 

In the following link they talk about how the Sweet Hotel, was raised while the hotel remained open.  The Sweet Hotel was the predecessor to the Pantlind Hotel and was at the same location at the corner of Pearl and Canal (Monroe.)  In fact until it was torn down when the new tower portion of the Amway Plaza was built, a portion of the Sweet Hotel still existed as the southwest corner of the Pantlind Hotel.  That old portion housed two popular bars that you might remember if you are as old as me; the Backroom Saloon, and hidden like a speak easy behind an unmarked door, the Upstairs Saloon.  They were decorated in the imagined ambience of drinking establishments from the late nineteenth century which of course was when the Sweet Hotel actually operated:

raising-canal-street

In Charles Belknap's book, The Yesterdays of Grand Rapids, he gives a personal account of the raising of the Sweet Hotel.  This is a PDF of the whole book so you will need to slide down to page 67 for the story:

Yesterdays of Grand Rapids 

EDIT: just found this photo of the west side of the Pantlind Hotel along Campau Street which was vacated when the tower was built.  The five story building is the old remnant of the Sweet Hotel:

back of-the Pantlind Hotel - old Sweet Hotel

EDIT2: Google has for some reason blocked the Yesterdays of Grand Rapids link.  It worked fine when I first posted it and it is/was on one of their own sites.  Maybe too many people clicking at the same time on an obscure book made them nervous.   Sorry.    

EDIT3:  University of Michigan also has the book online.  Here's a link right to the page where the raising of the Sweet Hotel is discussed: 

U of M: Yesterdays of Grand Rapids page 67

 

Edited November 26, 2021 by walker
added link that works

[walker]

15 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

. . .  There was a “tunnel” near the Rowe, but I don’t think it was a secret(didn’t they use it for parking?)?  I haven’t heard this story before,, but interested to learn more. 

Joe

Here's a comment from December 2014 where we discussed  the tunnel under Bridge Street by the Rowe.  Wingbert  provided a nice photo of the old tunnel.  Unfortunately the link imbedded in his comment no longer works and the first one in my comment doesn't either but the second one does:

old forgotten tunnel now removed

 

[wingbert]

Seattle gives tours and makes it an attraction, Grand Rapids hides it and encourages filling the spaces in.  That is so Grand Rapids.

[GRDadof3]

22 hours ago, ZAP! said:

Found a Reddit thread talking about some specific rumors, particularly around the area of The Pantlind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/16mnrb/storm_drainstunnels/c7xgccq

EDIT: And another *two,

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/1ogivq/where_are_cool_hidden_areas_of_gr/ccvhnmw

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/3azhbf/grand_rapids_urban_myths/cshuv5w

I've heard about the tunnels and I believe they're mostly for utilities and steam pipes and such. Some were for freight. I think the one between Devos Hall/Place and the Pantlind is a little more finished and was for dignitaries and performers for security (?). I think GRGridGirl? hosted a tour of some of them once. Or talked about doing it way back 15 years or so ago. 

[walker]

33 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

. . . I think the one between Devos Hall/Place and the Pantlind is a little more finished and was for dignitaries and performers for security (?). I think GRGridGirl? hosted a tour of some of them once. Or talked about doing it way back 15 years or so ago. 

The tunnel predated DeVos Place and originally connected the Pantlind Hotel to the old Civic Auditorium, (later renamed the George Welsh Auditorium.)  I think the original main purpose of the tunnel was to move catered food to the auditorium from the Pantlind kitchens.  

There was a very good restaurant in the basement of the Pantlind on the Lyon Street side called the Cypress Cellar.  You could access it from inside the hotel but there was also an outside staircase enclosed in what looked like a big wooden barrel.  The tunnel entrance was somewhere in the basement close to the restaurant dining area.  When the shrine circus made its annual week-long visit to the Civic Auditorium, they stabled the elephants in the tunnel.  The smells from the tunnel made for a unique dining experience if you happened to dine at the Cypress Cellar when the circus was in town.         
 

[Cookin_peacocks]

15 minutes ago, walker said:

The tunnel predated DeVos Place and originally connected the Pantlind Hotel to the old Civic Auditorium, (later renamed the George Welsh Auditorium.)  I think the original main purpose of the tunnel was to move catered food to the auditorium from the Pantlind kitchens.  

There was a very good restaurant in the basement of the Pantlind on the Lyon Street side called the Cypress Cellar.  You could access it from inside the hotel but there was also an outside staircase enclosed in what looked like a big wooden barrel.  The tunnel entrance was somewhere in the basement close to the restaurant dining area.  When the shrine circus made its annual week-long visit to the Civic Auditorium, they stabled the elephants in the tunnel.  The smells from the tunnel made for a unique dining experience if you happened to dine at the Cypress Cellar when the circus was in town.         
 

I can confirm they still very much use that tunnel for that purpose. I've walked it many times when I worked at the Amway. 

[GRDadof3]

55 minutes ago, walker said:

The tunnel predated DeVos Place and originally connected the Pantlind Hotel to the old Civic Auditorium, (later renamed the George Welsh Auditorium.)  I think the original main purpose of the tunnel was to move catered food to the auditorium from the Pantlind kitchens.  

There was a very good restaurant in the basement of the Pantlind on the Lyon Street side called the Cypress Cellar.  You could access it from inside the hotel but there was also an outside staircase enclosed in what looked like a big wooden barrel.  The tunnel entrance was somewhere in the basement close to the restaurant dining area.  When the shrine circus made its annual week-long visit to the Civic Auditorium, they stabled the elephants in the tunnel.  The smells from the tunnel made for a unique dining experience if you happened to dine at the Cypress Cellar when the circus was in town.         
 

Big enough for elephants?? Dang. 

[droonus2000]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:31 AM, ZAP! said:

If I recall, the greater legend is that the street level was raised to prevent flooding, and existing storefronts went underground (physically). Over time, they would get covered up and forgotten, but they still exist under our feet to this very day! ~spooky noises~

I think it's probably based on other cities where this actually happened, like Seattle.

I was thinking Seattle when I read your first paragraph. What they did was unbelievable, basically raising the streets a floor or two. I took the tour and think it’s a must see for any urban history buff when in town. 

[walker]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:29 PM, Cookin_peacocks said:

I had JUST talked to a construction worker who told me the same thing about the old press building. He said he saw it for himself and it was a whole block buried and now being excavated due to the recent development.

 

Don't know if I believed him, but man do I want to.

 

I do know a tunnel exists under Ottawa. I've been through it very recently.

The GR Press initially got their newsprint delivered by rail.  There was a long rail siding on the Grand Trunk Railroad that ended under an overpass that went under I-196.  There box cars of newsprint rolls were unloaded.  There was a conveyer belt to take the newsprint to an underground storage area. Never saw the storage area but I imagine it was under the parking lot and a pretty good size.  Probably big enough to stable a herd of elephants if you had the need for such a thing.     

Where was this tunnel you wrote about that's under Ottawa?

Before DeVos Place was built, there was tunnel under Monroe that connected the city hall and the county building to the Hall of Justice and the Police Department.  I'm not sure if it was open to the public. 

Edit: here's a discussion we had back in 2018 about the newsprint delivery system:

tunnel under old GR Press on Michigan

Edited November 7, 2021 by walker
added link to old comments and to fix a terribly written sentence

[Cookin_peacocks]

6 hours ago, walker said:

The GR Press initially got their newsprint delivered by rail.  There was a long rail siding on the Grand Trunk Railroad that ended under a specially built bridge over I-196 whose only purpose was as a dock to unload newsprint for the GR Press.  There was a conveyer belt to take the newsprint to an underground storage area. Never saw it but I imagine it was under the parking lot and pretty good size.  Probably big enough to stable a herd of elephants if you had the need for such a thing.     

Where was this tunnel you wrote about that's under Ottawa?

Before DeVos Place was built, there was tunnel under Monroe that connected the city hall and the county building to the Hall of Justice and the Police Department.  I'm not sure if it was open to the public. 

Edit: here's a discussion we had back in 2018 about the newsprint delivery system:

tunnel under old GR Press on Michigan

The Ottawa tunnel is from the bottom floor of the city/county ramp. The staircase along Ottawa, the one to the south near the 5/3rd building lot. Go down that staircase and you'll see signs.

 

It's nothing special. But it's there.

 

And a bridge OVER 196? Where was this? When was it taken down? Any pictures? I can't imagine it at all. I know of a tunnel under 196 that's still there, but over?

Edited November 6, 2021 by Cookin_peacocks

[walker]

4 hours ago, Cookin_peacocks said:

And a bridge OVER 196? Where was this? When was it taken down? Any pictures? I can't imagine it at all. I know of a tunnel under 196 that's still there, but over?

I meant the tunnel.  I worded that poorly.  I've edited it,  so hopefully the original comment makes more sense now.

Edited November 7, 2021 by walker