minimum wages

[BrandonTO416]

Instead of getting personal like so many of these discussion are, why not look at the actual stats. Using raw data that is unmanipulated by right wing think tanks, here is what the Census shows.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/STTab...S_2005_EST_G00_

If that link doesn't work or goes dead, here is the screen shot of the data subset.

Using actual facts, look at this. Household incomes are usually two people, but not always.

I'm going to use the first three categories up to $24,999 in yearly income as a benchmark, remember household income usually indicates people with TWO incomes.

If 12% of the households in America make $15-25k, 6.2% make between $10k and $15k, and 8.7% make less than $10,000 per year (again these stats don't include teens making an income because they would be included in the parent household) - you have roughly 26.7% of our nation's households making incomes that are below, at, or just above minimum wage.

You may be saying "but $25,000 is over $11/hr so that's not just above minimum wage!" Well, remember this is household income. The majority of these incomes are two incomes per household (111 million households in a nation of 300 million people).

Now I find it very, very unlikely that if we increased average incomes for 25% of the population by a significant amount that it would have a "small" effect on the GDP. And with all that extra spending, I highly doubt that it'd be "detrimental" to the economy to mandate a higher standard of living.

In my opinion it makes the pie bigger for everyone - business opportunity expands when millions more people can buy more products, government gets more tax revenue to curb deficit without raising taxes, and it forces business that has funds sitting around to invest into wages and those who can't compete will go out of business like they should.

I believe in trickle-up economics. Reaganomics is a failed policy from the past. Inflation based adjustments show that incomes for people in their 20's are now lower than they were for people 30 years ago on average. In other words we're on the virge of creating the first class of Americans that made less than their forefathers. And much of our new found "wealth" is spending via credit card, which will lead to lower income later in life or an increase in bankruptcies. We're just now beginning to reap the downfall of failed Reaganomics.

Hard work should be rewarded with the American Dream. We shouldn't be protecting wealth and those who collect incomes of many millions per year yet refuse to invest that money into wages. We've got a backwards mentality in America with this neo conservative movement.

I personally have training and an associates degree that allows me to do database management and general tech support services, so I don't have to worry about minimum wages myself. I've even had micro and macro economics courses in college. But I'm also not a myopic right winger who can't think outside the box. Our economy is more than just me, and I don't believe treating the person at your local Walmart who works 8+ hours a day pushing carts, counting cash registers, and doing some pretty tedious work as a sub-human being is the right thing to do.

Yes, selfishness does come into play, and I'm glad to be an educated person who doesn't look down upon those who have different circumstances and may not have grown up in a two parent household with two professional level incomes and encouragement that goes along with that.

[andyfried]

Thanks for the stats Heckles

[swh1972]

I'm all for a fair wage that is reflective of the work being performed, but I find it hard to believe that every job in America is worthy of $10/hour. That equates to approxiamtely $21,000 per year to pay for an unskilled laborer.

[kayman]

I'm all for a fair wage that is reflective of the work being performed, but I find it hard to believe that every job in America is worthy of $10/hour. That equates to approxiamtely $21,000 per year to pay for an unskilled laborer.

[erdogs]

I don't think you know anything about people on minimum wages.and it's obvious you dont give a damn about them.The nerve of you.You better hold on to your high paying job as tight as you can ,be careful not to make any mistakes.Oh I'm sorry you're not capable of doing that.Hum!

[andyfried]

If you are healthy and over 25 but still making minimum wage, it's you're own fault. I think it should keep up with wages, however if that's the best you ever do then you aren't working hard enough. Even if you work at McDonalds you should at the very least become a manager in just a few years. All it takes is a little hard work.

[erdogs]

This is degrading to anyone that makes minimum wages and you know it.

[andyfried]

I grew up in a single parent household for most of my childhood. My mother started out as a waitress making less than minimum wage, with tips she more than made up the difference but it took hard work to do her job better than anyone. She eventually made it to running a small bar/restaurant. She was by no means well off, but she did what she had to and didn't ask for special treatment or hand outs. In fact most of the people in family started out working minimum wage, but they too worked their way up.

If you raise minimum wage too high, you are just moving the line needed to cross. Essential items such as food and clothing will go up to pay for the wage increase. By then you will still be complaining about your wage, because it will still have the same value as before. Instead of paying 5 something for a big mac combo, you will be paying 8 or nine something. The only way to stop this from happening is to put a maximum wage in effect. That will only serve to bring down higher wage earners; it won't do anything to bring you up as your buying power will remain stable. However, maybe it will make you less jealous of them, but I doubt it.

I made it perfectly clear that you have a special circumstance and believe you should be given help to live comfortably. I'm talking about people who are physically and mentally as able as I am. I have no sympathy for people who work at a minimum wage job for years and never move up because they are not willing to put in the work. I run into these people all the time. This past week I was at the check-out in the grocery store and the clerk acted like I was putting her out by buying groceries. Even after I bagged my own groceries, the way I always do, I said thank you as she totally ignored me. This woman will remain at minimum wage for the rest of her life because of her attitude. And no I wasn't expecting a thank you for bagging my own groceries, but she could at least have acknowledged my presence. Sorry if I can't find it in my heart to feel sympathy for people like her.

[swh1972]

But the reality of these due to the rapid increase nationwide of the cost-of-living over the past decade has made practically impossible for someone to independently survive (without governmental assistance such as welfare) with less than such given rate.

[swh1972]

I'm really glad your family made it.but what about all of the families that have not made it,even when they work hard.You can't compare all low income famillies to yours.because you don't know what kind of hardships they're going through.

[andyfried]

If you find it degrading then that is your problem. It certainly wasn't meant to be degrading. I was merely pointing out that minimum wage is only a starting point, not a life long endeavor. If you see it as that, then that will all it will ever be.

[erdogs]

I'm really glad your family made it.but what about all of the families that have not made it,even when they work hard.You can't compare all low income famillies to yours.because you don't know what kind of hardships they're going through.

[erdogs]

No that's you're problem because money does not determine my humanity.You can have all the money in the world and still be wretched in your heart.

[andyfried]

Every family has hardships! My uncle has a daughter who was born premature and they told him she wouldn't live to be a year old. She is now 24, still living at home after many hospital surgeries over her lifetime. This has put a great burden financially and mentally on him and his wife. He too started out at the bottom with hardships, but he worked his arse off to get where he is today. My grandfather was killed before I was born and a year later my uncle died from diabeties at the age of 19. My grandmother didn't let this get her down and went on with her life to raise her other 4 kids, eventually re-marrying.

Of course these things happen and I sympathize with them. Life isn't always fair, but if you put in the time and effort, it can work out. Sorry for what ever you may have been through, but you know I was not generalizing everyone on minimum wage. Most people who stay at minimum wage incomes have no one to blame but themselves. I have known plenty of people like this, but they decided getting drunk, doing drugs and having kids they couldn't afford was more important than stability in their lives. There is an old saying, "You make your bed, you lay in it", hows that for compassion. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I feel, so I will leave it at that.

[swh1972]

No , we have welfare because of people that think like you.

[erdogs]

That's your problem.you think ALL poor people are drug addicts,drunks and making babies,but there are multitudes of people struggling to make ends meet.Step outside of your neighborhood somstimes.

Because I like to taunt the inhumane.

[Gusterfell]

If you find the word "All" in those paragraphs, then please point it out. Taunting is all you have been doing, you haven't provided any salient points yet. Thanks for the one sided conversation.

[erdogs]

Comments like that certainly imply that all poor people who are healthy and over 25 are to blame for their circumstances. Andyfried is being argumentative, but your comments on this issue do come off as cold and uncaring generalisations, not to mention uninformed.

[andyfried]

Ha! People on welfare should thank people like me. I pay taxes and social security with the expectation that I will get NOTHING in return for it, and you will never hear me complain about it. I am not a drain on society through drug addiction or criminal activity, and I'm not bringing children into the world that I can't take care of.

[andyfried]

If you find the word "All" in those paragraphs, then please point it out. Taunting is all you have been doing, you haven't provided any salient points yet. Thanks for the one sided conversation.

[swh1972]

How did we get off of minimum wages and onto welfare.They go hand in hand don't they?

[Gusterfell]

That's your opinion. Sorry for not accounting for every possible angle someone might take with my statement. I'm not a mind reader or psychologist. I stand by my position and will leave it at that. Make of it what you want.

[erdogs]

It isn't an opinion. That you and your family have done well in life, despite whatever adversity, does not mean that every poor person somehow deserves to be poor. That is a gross oversimplification, and does nothing to promote civil discussion of the issue.

[Gusterfell]

Well perhaps you can enlighten us by sharing your views rather than trying to tear down mine. No one deseves to be poor, but you get out of life what you put into it. Don't expect me to make up the difference.

[BrandonTO416]

Hmm. Did anyone forget the fact that 26% of the households in the US make less than $25,000 mean anything to this conversation?