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New Interstates for the Southeast


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Well if it takes them as long to build any of these proposals as it has for them to build I-22 between Memphis and B'ham, I don't look for any of these proposals to occur anytime during the first half of this century. :)

Bigharddrives, I like your map, but if they extend I-185 down towards Tally, it must go through Albany, GA. I believe that is in the current proposal.

Yes I'm surprised to see a route follow 431 in AL as opposed to 231. I know that 231 between Dothan and Montgomery handles at least twice the traffic of 431 from Dothan to Columbus.

If you read the AL threads, the State of AL is talking about creating a connector from Dothan to I-10 currently. I've always read that it would extend up the 231 route to Ozark, Troy and finally Montgomery.

Yes the PC expressway from Panama City to I-10 and above hasn't had much talk or discussion since 9.11. However the State of FL has created the NW FL Expressway authority and they would be the ones over the PC connector and the coastal road they want to run from P'cola to Wakulla County, FL. You can bet any new expressways built in FL will be toll roads!

Final note: Tally metro has a population bigger than PC and Dothan metros combined.

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Well if it takes them as long to build any of these proposals as it has for them to build I-22 between Memphis and B'ham, I don't think look for any of these proposals to occur anytime during the first half of this century. :)

Bigharddrives, I like your map, but if they extend I-185 down towards Tally, it must go through Albany, GA. I believe that is in the current proposal.

Yes I'm surprised to see a route follow 431 in AL as opposed to 231. I know that 231 between Dothan and Montgomery handles at least twice the traffic of 431 from Dothan to Columbus.

If you read the AL threads, the State of AL is talking about creating a connector from Dothan to I-10 currently. I've always read that it would extend up the 231 route to Ozark, Troy and finally Montgomery.

Yes the PC expressway from Panama City to I-10 and above hasn't had much talk or discussion since 9.11. However the State of FL has created the NW FL Expressway authority and they would be the ones over the PC connector and the coastal road they want to run from P'cola to Wakulla County, FL. You can bet any new expressways built in FL will be toll roads!

Final note: Tally metro has a population bigger than PC and Dothan metros combined.

I find that hard to believe that there is more traffic from Montgomery-Dothan than Columbus-Dothan. U.S. 431 is than main route to the panhandle for Columbus, Auburn/Opelika, and metro Atlanta.

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I find that hard to believe that there is more traffic from Montgomery-Dothan than Columbus-Dothan. U.S. 431 is than main route to the panhandle for Columbus, Auburn/Opelika, and metro Atlanta.

Well I was born and raised in that region and still have many relatives in the area. Both 231 and 431 were the major routes we used. I still travel both routes a few times a year (to Auburn from Tally and to Montgomery from Tally) and to me it's rather obvious which route is more travelled...231. However, I doubt the 231 traffic is double like I stated above.

Remember that while Columbus, Auburn/Opelika and metro ATL use 431 to get to the panhandle, all of Montgomery, B'ham and a lot of Huntsville, Nashville and much of the Midwest as far north as Chicago use 231 ans their route into ALL of FL. ATL metro has other options into FL like 75.

ON EDIT:

My apologies ATLman1 for giving you some wrong info. The 70k plus figure I read for US 231 traffic was way out of line. I thought that sounded crazy.

From this source ALDOT you will see that daily traffic on US 231 between Dothan and Montgomery averages 15k to 20k in the more rural parts while US 431 between Dothan and Cols averages around 10K to 15K for the rural parts from the best I can tell. This interactive map seems to not work so well w/my computer. If you see something different, please let me know.

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Columbus-Dothan would be traveled a lot more than Montgomery-Dothan. All of Columbus, Auburn/Opelika, and the Atlanta metro would use it to get to the panhandle.

Well, all the people from Illinois, Tennessee, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, Virginia, etc... use the I-65 corridor to get to the Emeral Coast. I can't remember the last person I talked to that drove through Atlanta to get to the Florida Gulf Coast. So, I don't know if I'd say that the Columbus Dothan would be used more. There's already an advertizment campaign by Dothan and Ozark to attract people to drive down 231 to get to PC. "4 Lanes to the Gulf Coast" is what they call it I do believe.

Final note: Tally metro has a population bigger than PC and Dothan metros combined.

Yes, but, just barely. Combined, PC and DHN have about 30,000 less than Tally. Though, linking the two metros is vital for PC and DHN.

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Yes, but, just barely. Combined, PC and DHN have about 30,000 less than Tally. Though, linking the two metros is vital for PC and DHN.

Hey 30k is bigger than most towns in Bama. :)

And a northern expressway link for Tally isn't vital?

The PC to DHN connection was talked about and is being planned whether or not this I-81 proposal comes to fruition or not. But not only will folks from Bama be stopping at the State Line for lottery tickets, they'll also be stopping to pay a toll. I do work w/FLDOT and ALL new expressways in FL from now on will be TOLL ROADS unless there are some dramatic changes in the existing policies.

I'd prefer this scenario: send the PC/DHN expressway northwest to MGM after Dothan via Ozark and Troy and then go w/the I-185 connection from Cols. to Albany to Tallytown.

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Hey 30k is bigger than most towns in Bama. :)

And a northern expressway link for Tally isn't vital?

The PC to DHN connection was talked about and is being planned whether or not this I-81 proposal comes to fruition or not. But not only will folks from Bama be stopping at the State Line for lottery tickets, they'll also be stopping to pay a toll. I do work w/FLDOT and ALL new expressways in FL from now on will be TOLL ROADS unless there are some dramatic changes in the existing policies.

I'd prefer this scenario: send the PC/DHN expressway northwest to MGM after Dothan via Ozark and Troy and then go w/the I-185 connection from Cols. to Albany to Tallytown.

Hehe, we also have two metros that are gaining that amount in five years. But, yea, that's still not impressive.

Again everyone, there IS more traffic between Montgomery and Dothan than Columbus and Dothan. I can't remember who had the link, but, someone had a link in this thread for the statistics from ALDOT. The corridor might be more popular for GA people going to the beach, but, the 231 corridor is popular for everyone north and east of GA.

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From this source ALDOT

That was my link Alabadrock. I've looked at it again (seems to be working better now than when I first used it) and it definitely shows 231 as a busier highway than 431.

And that wasn't cut-down on Alabama towns. After all I am native of the state. :) It just seems most of the cities are smaller than they should be. Huntsville is about the same size as Tally, but the metro is bigger. Same goes for Mobile, it should be bigger based on metro size. However Montgomery is the opposite, it seems much bigger than it should be for its metro size.

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Interesting. The Mississippi-Arkansas region sure has a lot of green [lines].

I don't like the proposed interstate North of Little Rock, right through the Buffalo National River and Ozarks.

Yeah I agree, it seems redundant if they do build I-49 in western Arkansas.

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  • 2 weeks later...

While not in the extreme southeast, I posted about how the London-Somerset Interstate 66 alignment was approved by the state of Kentucky. It's a waste of money, IMO.

LOL - will this connect to anything? I know it won't connect to the existing 66, and there hasn't been much movement on this W of KY either. And - shouldn't this be have an (even) number between 40 and 64 anyway? Like 42, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62 are all up for grabs...

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Please forgive me on this - I'm going to throw some thoughts out and be 'devil's advocate' on this, a necessity to sharpening any plan.

What about the money for this? The currently in-development interstates (73, 74, 41, 49, 14, 69) are really taking an eternity to get done, largely for financial reasons.

The second reason for slow progress is politics, which influenced the routing of some of those future interstates, a few of which don't go very directly anywhere, and zig-zag in ways that anyone with an ability to read a road atlas would do well to find ways around.

Might not really pushing - at the regional level - for a state of the art rail network across the SE (TX to VA) - the kind of network that might be a prototype for the rest of the country - be a better idea, thinking long-range? The future of an auto-centric transportation infrastructure is rather cloudy.

Interstates are not getting any cheaper. The absolute reality is that not every county in the country can have them. There are several cities with populations well over 100,000 that are still not on an interstate (Fresno, Bakersfield, Brownsville all instantly spring to mind); the roughly 10-15 largest of those cities are not in the SE. The increasing difficulty in building new infrastructure (or in maintaining the infrastructure we already have - take a spin on I-85 through central NC for a real reality check in this dept) mean that economic development cannot view an interstate as the solution to all problems - this is basically a 1960 solution, and we have a whole new set of problems in places both rural and urban. If Fresno has gotten to be a city of ~400,000 without an interstate running through town, they must have done something else right.

Comment on some specific proposals floated here:

I-7: Give it another number. Politics (specifically, one in PA who left office with a cloud or two over his head) influenced the numbering scheme (I-99), but there is still a theoretical logic in place. Let's try to avoid the useless chaos the US highway system (numbering schemes included) has degenerated into. As a proposed route, this project might actually make some sense otherwise.

I-11: Give it another number.

I-16 ext: There is a "high-priority corridor" between Dallas and Amarillo. It's mostly 4-lane divided, don't think there are any imminent upgrades.

I-30 ext: There's a Memphis-Huntsville-Chattanooga "high priority corridor" along US 72, some sort of interstate may be needed there. Otherwise, this seems dubious - the I-3 proposal is getting assailed for myriad reasons - no one is getting an interstate across N GA, SW NC has killed it here, TN is not interested.

I-77 ext: I'd argue with this one. There's not much geographical sense with it; would be good for Augusta, but the benefits anywhere else aren't immediately apparent. And there would be huge environmental concerns - the Okeefenokee Swamp is not small.

I-81 ext: Columbus-to-FL, of some kind is probably needed. I'd find another number for it and lose that W Atlanta loop. There have been many proposals for various loops around ATL, some (partially) on a route that looks like this one does, and they have (at least twice) been killed by major opposition to new interstates in N GA.

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Here is my proposal for southern interstates. I'm not sure what the approved routing for is I-69, so I just guessed.

quartz11-isouth.JPG

Brown = I-69

Red = I-14

Blue = we'll call that I-71 (yes, I know one exists in OH/KY, but we got other doubles with 76/84/86/88)

Silver = I-22

Now, here's where it gets interesting.

Green = I-59

Now you might be asking yourself ... self, isn't there I-59 going east from there already? Well, take I-59 away from Alabama and cut that long multiplex from I-20. Put it on the green routing, push it all the way past Jackson TN back up towards I-55 past I-69. As for the I-59 segment between Birmingham and Chattanooga, change that to I-22. Hey, why not?

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It doesn't matter how much it costs because nobody cares how much it costs to build roads. Bring up the issue of train costs and people will flip out.

Because, as I've said numerous times before, Americans on the whole will not adpot mass transit. We will always love our cars & will pay whatever the price is for that kind of freedom.

I do dig this whole idea of more interstates in the South. I think I-77 from Columbia needs to go straight south to Savannah, connecting at the Talmadge bridge, providing a seamless change-over to I-16.

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I think that an interstate from Raleigh to Norfolk would be great (as it would get some cars off of I-64 in VA so that I can actually get to the beach from Richmond in the summertime, a trip that has gone from taking about 1.5 hours to 2.5 hours over the past few years due to increased traffic). It would serve as a much needed evacuation route for coastal NC and Tidewater VA. The NC 64 (not sure where it goes east of Rocky Mount) could be extended to Elizabeth City, then up to Portsmouth or Chesapeake. Would be a great trade route too!

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It doesn't matter how much it costs because nobody cares how much it costs to build roads. Bring up the issue of train costs and people will flip out.

I must agree. Building more interstates is pointless. What is wrong with just upgrading existing U.S. highway routes that really need it to limited access standards? We can't even handle the current infastructure, so building more roads to maintain is just silly.

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^

This is one of those "high-priority corridors" legislated in the early 1990s; the whole stretch is being upgraded to non-interstate freeway: US 64 (Raleigh to Williamston NC) and US 17 (Williamston to Chesapeake). The 64 upgrade is done, the 17 upgrades (so far, to expressway) are taking a bit longer.

There has been discussion in a transportation website of two and a few editorials suggesting this as the southern leg of a Raleigh-to-Wilmington DE interstate (the above HP corridor, an upgraded 13 through Norfolk/Va Bch, Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel, and upgrades to 13 from there to 95 in Newark DE). I don't think it's been formally proposed by anyone; there would be advantages (mainly, hurricane evac and as a relief route up the E Coast that would completely bypass Baltimore/Washington gridlock), but the expense of it would be extreme. Between $ and environmental concerns, I seriously doubt it could be built.

^^

On paper I like the idea of more interstates - I've thought up a couple roadgeek ludicrous unbuildable ones (1 - Extend I-40 west on CA58 to Bakersfield, up the I5 from west of Bakersfield to the 580 split, and re-sign 580 as 40 from there into the Bay Area, which could fix that I-238 issue along the way, and [2] - A Portland OR-to-Savannah [or Tallahassee] NW-to-SE interstate, which is absolutely unfeasable in every way).

BUT the expense is issue #1 - it was great seeing the Interstate system getting stitched together towards the end (1970s-80s), but big chunks of the existing system are deteriorating, and I think that should be more of a priority than it is. And, in light of today's financial and environmental realities - new interstates might individually take 50 years to build (a timeframe that essentially eliminates any theoretical benefits). In the short run, there are a lot of new highways whose main benefit is as some sort of photo op: put on a big show, while other critical needs go unmet. Thus, the economic development and transportation logic behind any number of planned roads - is (in some instances at least) more dubious now than it ever might have been: parts Appalachia (for example) have been criss-crossed by any number of interstates, but the economic boom (with a few very specific places) still hasn't arrived, so it shouldn't be assumed that a bunch of new freeways alone will do anything anywhere else, beyond the usual fast food-and-strip mall proliferation. I think more unorthodox, innovative and creative thinking about transportation and economic development might actually be more feasible. Innovative solutions when given a chance to succeed can pay benefits at least as long as any road can, and possibly for far longer.

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I've seen this for rail...

high-speed-rail.jpg

You would think there would be a connection between B'ham and Memphis to tie the two networks together.

This is idiotic. Texarkana is a nice place but it would be more fitting for a high-speed rail connection to go Dallas-Shreveport-Little Rock rather than Dallas-Texarkana-Little Rock. Shreveport will soon be at the crossroads of three interstates, has an established (and rapidly growing) inland port, is a good, direct route to the petrochemical plants of south Louisiana, and is a major hub for the Kansas City Southern railway. Rails either cross, or bypass, almost every major thoroughfare in this region... the railroad is a huge part of the past and present of this region, and it would make sense for it to be a huge part of the future of this region as well.

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Because, as I've said numerous times before, Americans on the whole will not adpot mass transit. We will always love our cars & will pay whatever the price is for that kind of freedom.

I do dig this whole idea of more interstates in the South. I think I-77 from Columbia needs to go straight south to Savannah, connecting at the Talmadge bridge, providing a seamless change-over to I-16.

As long as mass transit sucks, then you're probably right. But at some point more roads won't be the solution. I think we've reached that point. Its time to invest in something that will move the masses in our major megalapolitan regions.

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I've seen this for rail...

high-speed-rail.jpg

You would think there would be a connection between B'ham and Memphis to tie the two networks together.

This map is kind of silly. Why not connect Columbus to Pittsburgh;Louisville to Nashville to Memphis to Jackson/Birmingham; them B'ham to Montgomery to Mobile to Mississippi to New Orleans; Jackon to Baton Rouge to New Orleans; and Houston to Austin just to name a few. This map seems to me to have a lot of big flaws in it, but I don't see them installing a high seed rail soon so they should have a lot of time to work out all the kinks.

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ALDOT is letting the demolition of structures along the final portion of I-22 in Birmingham. I hope we'll see some progress by the end of the year into next year. I think completion is scheduled for 2011.

http://www.dot.state.al.us/internetdocs/Te...T=Guest#CALL014

I think the director of ALDOT wants to push the end date to be 2010. Maybe that'll happen, maybe it won't. Seeing as ALDOT has never been too good for a schedule, or sticking to one, I doubt it'll happen.

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Memphis would benefit from this as well.

But many of those routes seem redundant - particularly those in southern Arkansas and northern Mississippi. Why interstates? Why not 4-lane divided highways? Most of the areas are very rural and sparsely populated.

And why not some sort of rail proposal?

I noticed that it didn't include loops, but it's interesting to see what appears to be I-7 and I-30. I-7 going through Jxn, TN, and I-30 from Huntsville bumping around Memphis (probably the I269 loop). I think that would go along the US78 route and has been proposed for a while now.

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  • 1 month later...

I noticed that it didn't include loops, but it's interesting to see what appears to be I-7 and I-30. I-7 going through Jxn, TN, and I-30 from Huntsville bumping around Memphis (probably the I269 loop). I think that would go along the US78 route and has been proposed for a while now.

Interstates vs. Rail - the conversation shouldn't be an either/or. Rail travel does depend on private companies to offer the service, much like airlines. Right now, there is no private company that is profitable, or one that has offered to provide service if the infrastructure was built. That said, I think some rail could be co-located along with Interstate highways. There would be no better marketing for rail travel and a train passing you everyday while you're stuck in traffic. Still, that's most effective intra-market (like withing Greater Atlanta) than inter-market (like between Birmingham and Atlanta).

Interstates vs. 4-lanes -

Part A - several comments have been expressed regarding converting 4-lanes to Interstates. The image doesn't make it apparant, but many of the Interstates do suggest use of existing rural 4-lanes as Interstate segements. As these 4-lanes get closer to major markets, the land cost along these 4-lanes gets cost prohibitive. Too, these 4-lanes are actually more effective as service routes within the markets because you can have curb cuts for shopping, retail, neighborhoods and industry near population centers where they are needed.

Part B - Interstates are most effective as unobstructed routes between population centers. The thing is to use the right road type in the right location. Interestates were originally designed to go around cities. Politics brought them through cities. Using 4-lanes for for inter-city travel eventually leads to congestion and start-and-stop traffic which wastes more gas and causes more pollution. Look at U.S. 280 between Columbus, GA and Birmingham. Traffic signalization along 280 have moved out from each metro area a total of 16 miles in two years. That's 10% of the total travel distance "door to door". That's not including towns like Sylacauga, Alex City, etc. or the church in Westover that was able to lobby for speed control.

Interstates offer large-scale economic development opportunities that 4-lanes do not. Industry that needs to move product regionally will locate near or along Interestates.

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