Tallest cross in the western hemisphere to be in Rogers?

[masons_dad1]

I appreciate the fact that some of your comments/complaints about the Cross being gaudy, tasteless or tacky are on-topic and somewhat legitimate. I can't say I agree with this particular Cross being gaudy, tasteless or tacky, but I can understand how some people may come to some of these opinions. To me, tasteless/tacky would be a Cross standing above a strip club or a church converted into condos or a nightclub. Gaudy (by definition) is something brightly coloured or showily decorated and that's definitely not this Cross. I really don't understand how that opinion could be generated. The 200 ft Cross planned in Rogers will be a simple and plain white Cross. The only real complaint I can understand is that it may be too tall.

As for the Cross being used as a cell phone tower, I think it's a creative way for the church to generate funds to help build the outreach campus planned with the Cross. It will also help generate funds for the many missionary works that the church is involved in.

Note: As for comments and/or criticism of Christians, I will take mineola's advice and start reporting these violations to the site mods and/or admins. The rules explicitly state "zero tolerence" for flaming/bashing of one person or a group of persons (Christians are a group of persons). Also, if another forum member is mentioned in a post directed to me with the purpose of negative characterization (bashing) of that member, I will report those violations to the site mods and/or admins.

[cocothief]

Lord have mercy.

[astrife]

astrife, I stated the thoughts that were in my head. I am here to learn, and to contribute. That's it. I'm not saying I know everything. My only absolute is my faith and total trust in Christ. My intent was never to be discriminatory or self-righteous. As I said, I have learned a lot from people here, even you, and I thought that was the point. To express our views, to consider and weigh the views of others. I speak from my personal experience of 36 years of being a pastor's kid and music minister in 6 different churches; I've known a lot of Christians, and I find them to be great people, as a whole.

If I'm wrong about something, tell me, and I'll consider your view, but I don't appreciate being characterized as "too far gone" and "discriminatory". Enlighten me if you wish, but don't write me off. Thank you.

[Julles]

I apologize for having written you off, but it is very important for me to point out religious intolerance. Atheists are one of the few minorities it is still acceptable to discriminate against. In Arkansas' constituition we are still barred from holding office or testifying technically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States), and because of things like this I take it upon myself to point out religiously intolerant statements so as to raise awareness that it is not ok to make statements like that anymore.

[masons_dad1]

Found some pics of some of the tallest Crosses in the western hemisphere that I thought I'd share. Based on the description of the planned 200 ft Cross in Rogers I'm guessing it will look more like the first pic (the Cross being built in Orlando):

199ft Cross - Orlando, FL (Under Contruction)

198ft Cross - Effingham, IL

190ft Cross - Groom, TX

175ft (Tallest of 3) Crosses - Rogers, AR

150ft Cross - Middletown, VA

90ft Cross on 200ft Cliff Face - Sedona, AZ

50+ft Cross - Sunnyside, NY

100ft Cell Phone Tower Cross - All Over the US

[Architect]

I don't have an opinion about the crosses, but I find it ironic that those of you who are clamoring for a "diverse" and "progressive cosmopolitan area that is tolerant of all belief systems" aren't doing such a great job of exhibiting that...

[zman9810]

I don't have an opinion about the crosses, but I find it ironic that those of you who are clamoring for a "diverse" and "progressive cosmopolitan area that is tolerant of all belief systems" aren't doing such a great job of exhibiting that...

[masons_dad1]

Your post is a classic case of taking words out of context and ascribing to them a meaning that was never expressed in the original post. I made it a point to not express my personal view about any belief system but to question how the crosses would affect the image of the area for people that might consider moving here.

This area is part of the "Bible Belt", an informal term for an area in which socially conservative Christian Evangelical Protestantism is a dominant part of the culture. Wikipedia article. Wikipedia isn't my favorite reference source but will do for now. There are people from other parts of the world who view that dominance in a negative light. Personally, I know a single woman with a daughter that moved here from a large coastal metropolitan area that is counting the days until she can leave because she doesn't want to raise her daughter in what she sees as a repressive atmosphere.

In order for businesses that need talented employees with their own beliefs that may come from anywhere in the world to succeed a more inclusive enviroment needs to develop. People from everywhere need to know they can come live here and not feel pressured to conform to the dominant religous views.

[abdintp]

I have a question. Does that statement about the single woman and her child mean she moved here from a place where atheism or agnosticism or one of the other "ism's" is the dominant religion? Sounds like a place where Christians are frowned upon and pressured to conform to the "dominant religious views." I'd probably be the one counting the days until I could leave that kind of place so I guess I can understand how she feels.

[Julles]

OK. In reading through these posts, I've been the most outraged and hurt by posts like this one in the quote: inflamatory, making no attempt at reconciliation. And what really frustrates me about these posts is that at least half of them come from Christians.

That said, agnosticism and atheism aren't religions. Quite the opposite, they're loosely defined philosophical ideologies. As such, it's hard for them to dominate a cultural landscape as Christianity--alas, a very structured institution--does. One thing that definitely confuses me, Julles in particular kept mentioning 75% of our country as Christian. True, but that's about the same statistic as in Iceland where, (Wikipedia: Religion in Europe) 77% are Protestant Christians, but only 38% believe in God. Although I have no data for the US, I think you'd be kidding yourself to believe that all 75% of Americans who list themselves as Christian go to church and believe in Christ as the savior, etc. I always list myself as Methodist, but only because I was raised that way; now I don't adhere to organized religion.

There are certainly places in this country where Christianity is much less prevalent than in NWA, however people in those places (with few exceptions) do not "frown upon" Christians, with Christians here being people who believe in Christ or people who are from typically Christ-worshipping backgrounds. Some people in these areas, however, I feel would be VERY likely to frown down upon people who attend Evangelical churches where size is emphasized over community, and material displays of strength (here I'm thinking of the cross) are emphasized rather than personal displays of personal strength. To me, the best and ONLY true way to witness Christ's love is through love, and through compassionate acts. When I see a person on the highway with a Jesus fish make room for another car, I know that person in practicing what Christ taught. When I see a church building a 200 ft cross, I can't see the relation to things Christ taught (see humility, love, reconciliation).

Furthermore, I can see your (Mason's Dad) argument making sense about there being more signs of Christianity in a mostly Christian country, but I think most people in the world didn't get that memo about America. Most people think of the US as a bastion of diversity, as multi-ethnic, because that's what we tout ourselves as. As such, I don't see it being OK for the landscape to be littered with symbols of only a single religion.

Most of all, I think people who "follow" Christ should be the FIRST, and not the last, to uphold other's grievances about a giant cross. Christ was one of the most compassionate people to ever walk this Earth; why can't Christians act the same?

[zman9810]

I have a question. Does that statement about the single woman and her child mean she moved here from a place where atheism or agnosticism or one of the other "ism's" is the dominant religion? Sounds like a place where Christians are frowned upon and pressured to conform to the "dominant religious views." I'd probably be the one counting the days until I could leave that kind of place so I guess I can understand how she feels.

[zman9810]

As I read both posts, I see MasonsDad and zman saying exactly the same thing, only on opposite sides of the fence. I don't understand why only MasonsDad is considered to be making an inflammatory post.

If a Christian chooses to attend a large evangelical church, they are looked down upon, a fact both you and I agree on. I don't agree that large churches choose size over community. If people are finding what they need, they come back, and they bring their friends. A larger facility needs to be built, simple. Should these churches turn people away, or have them sitting on each other's laps, rather than build an adequate facility? Nearly all of these churches come together on Sunday, but they do split up into small groups during the week to foster a sense of community. By the way, I attend a small, very close-knit evangelical church, and I'm still repressing people apparently, according to the views expressed here. It doesn't matter how I actually live my life, it doesn't matter how many kids I mentor, or how warm and welcoming I am to people of all races and faiths.

In response to your final question, millions and millions of Christians do strive to act the same as Christ, every single day. They just don't make the news.

I think the issue of the cross is just unearthing all the hurts and misconceptions each of us have about each other.

[abdintp]

As I read both posts, I see MasonsDad and zman saying exactly the same thing, only on opposite sides of the fence. I don't understand why only MasonsDad is considered to be making an inflammatory post.

[Julles]

I entirely agree, and am sorry I didn't make myself clear. I was only using the most recent post as an example of inflammatory language on both sides.

[masons_dad1]

No, she moved here from an area that is predominately Catholic. There are so many divisions of Christianity that it is hard to generalize about the religion.

[mattdev]

I can see why someone from a predominantly Catholic area would feel out of place here... I only know of a couple Catholic Churches in the area.

I agree about the divisions within Christianity along with all religions, including Hinduism and Buddhism and even division within Catholicism itself (Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox). I guess when it comes to religion there will never be a perfect agreement among followers of any faith. Although the divisions (diversity) only exist in "bordering issues", most religions are unified by "core beliefs". So, in reality there are only four religions in existence; Abrahamic, Dharmic, Taoic and Aetheist. I include Atheism among religions for the simple fact that most Atheists seem to have more opinions about religion than any other religion; that sounds more like a religion than anything else. Since everyone on the planet belongs to 1 of 4 religions, I guess it really is a small planet after all.

I thought I'd add that the history of the Cross pre-dates Christianity by around 10,000 years. There have been cross shapes found carved on cave walls dated back to the Stone Age. Just a little trivia to keep the discussion on-topic.

[masons_dad1]

I think most scholars would subdivide Christianity into 3 groups, and their corresponding subgroups - Catholicism (Eastern Rite and Latin Rite), Eastern Orthodoxy (Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, etc.) and Protestantism (Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, etc.) - The Eastern Orthodox church is a division within the Catholic Church, much the same the Protestants are a division of the Catholic Church - The difference being that the Eastern Orthodox broke off in the Great Schism appx 500 yrs before the Protestant movement - As such, I wouldn't technically characterize Eastern Orthodoxy as a sub-group of Catholicism - If one were, then I would argue that all christian churches can in some way trace their founding back to the RCC

[cowbreath]

I thought I'd add that the history of the Cross pre-dates Christianity by around 10,000 years. There have been cross shapes found carved on cave walls dated back to the Stone Age. Just a little trivia to keep the discussion on-topic.

[masons_dad1]

How long does the cross as a means of capital punishment predate Christianity?

I guess I never felt this area was sweltering with the presense of christians. I've always gotten the feeling of nominal christianity here. I guess that's just me. I have a bias towards the people in this area I guess because of the experiences I had in high school and such, but just never got the feeling that those who were christian ever really cared that much about other people here just themselves. I've met a few examples that are really good, but I guess that's just how it is in our culture with all the money and such.

[mattdev]

"The Cross just became a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ for Christians and for Catholics the Crucifix became there symbol for the Death of Christ."

This is one of the most ill-informed statements I've ever read on this board

[masons_dad1]

"The Cross just became a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ for Christians and for Catholics the Crucifix became there symbol for the Death of Christ."

This is one of the most ill-informed statements I've ever read on this board

[mattdev]

You must not read this board much then. Which part of that statement do you not understand? I will be happy... no I will be ecstatic to clarify it for you.

[masons_dad1]

I read it often, and it's not a matter of misunderstanding - I'm concerned as to how someone browsing this forum would take your separation of "Christians" from "Catholics," as if the latter is separate and distinct from the former - Perhaps you meant to state "Protestants" and "Catholics"? And your analysis of symbolism in the quote is quite shallow, in my opinion

But, if you feel you can explain these away, be my guest

[mattdev]

I understand your concern (or anyone else's) about the obvious seperation between Christians and Catholics in my statement, which was unintentional. There are Christians that are neither Protestant nor Catholic and I don't consider myself a Protestant Christian, but simply a Christian. Therefore I should have worded my statement differently. My rewording would state that Christians as a whole regard the Christian Cross (an empty cross) as a symbol of the Resurrection of Christ, while the Catholic denominations of Christianity regard the Crucifix (a cross depicting the crucified Jesus) as a symbol of the Death of Christ.

I can assure you my "analysis of symbolism" in my statement is in agreement with mainstream religion and philosophy. Based on my experiences as a Christian and a knowledge-seeker I can safely say that there is a distinction between the Christian Cross and the Crucifix as read in my statement. The empty Cross of Christianity does symbolize the Resurrection of Christ and the Crucifix does symbolize the Death of Christ. Some may not agree, but I feel that most Christians (including Catholics) would agree. Although, I will admit the statement I made regarding the Cross and the Crucifix may be viewed as derogatory toward Catholics, but I can assure you it's not. Many of the doctrine's of Catholicism focus on the crucifixion of Christ (that is the sacrifice that Christ made on the Cross) and is the reason for the depiction of Christ upon the Crucifix.

So, it seems that forums like this are better for thoughtful discussions and not for negative comments meant to insult and debase members of this forum, as does your comment that my statement was "ill-informed".

[masons_dad1]

"I would agree that my statement regarding your "ill-informed" post was a little too harsh - I overreacted to your poor choice of words - For that I apologize - Perhaps the moral here is that UrbanPlanet is not the most appropriate place to contemplate the differing views within Christianity?" - mattdev

I hesitantly accept your apology as you seem to have just insulted me twice more. Refer to the items in the quote above: 1) "your "ill-informed" post" and 2) "your poor choice of words".

My statements have been concerning the symbol of the Cross since a 200-foot Cross seems to be the subject of this topic. Since I've mentioned similar Crucifix's being built around the country I felt it appropriate to mention the difference between the two. Whether those statements are "ill-informed" or not is left to each own's personal opinion.

I think the moral here is that UrbanPlanet is a place where individuals should be able to state their opinions without fear of being judged as "ill-informed" or "shallow" or any other derogatory comment meant to insult or debase those individuals. Individuals who dissagree with others' statements should be allowed to dissagree without further need to post critical judgments meant to insult or debase other individuals.