Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[Raintree21]

Any idea what he is asking for? Especially what he is asking for that *impossible for them to give*?

No one, either commissioners or Reece, is talking about his demands. I'm sure after tonights meeting, which is closed door by the way, details will come out.

[New Name]

In somewhat related news, the Atlanta Braves look to be pulling their AAA team from Richmond, VA. I can say, having lived in Richmond for 8 years, that the bureaucracy of that city may have sowed it's own downfall. The years in which I lived there were spent arguing over a downtown ballpark - the plans were bogged by upstarts, land-misers, greed, political agendas and personal vendettas and the idea of a downtown ballpark was eventually thrown away. Now, it is 2 years later, and the news that Atlanta will be pulling their team comes.

Let's hope it doesn't happen here in Charlotte.

[HopHead]

In somewhat related news, the Atlanta Braves look to be pulling their AAA team from Richmond, VA. I can say, having lived in Richmond for 8 years, that the bureaucracy of that city may have sowed it's own downfall. The years in which I lived there were spent arguing over a downtown ballpark - the plans were bogged by upstarts, land-misers, greed, political agendas and personal vendettas and the idea of a downtown ballpark was eventually thrown away. Now, it is 2 years later, and the news that Atlanta will be pulling their team comes.

Let's hope it doesn't happen here in Charlotte.

Yea, I saw that too. It's a shame. I used to go their games for the 4th of July fireworks when I lived there. You're right about the city government there... the bureaucracy drove me nuts.

I don't think it will happen to Charlotte. We are much further along in the process for a new stadium downtown and have less red tape. Hopefully we won't have to worry bout Jerry Reese soon enough.

[CharlotteDave]

In somewhat related news, the Atlanta Braves look to be pulling their AAA team from Richmond, VA. I can say, having lived in Richmond for 8 years, that the bureaucracy of that city may have sowed it's own downfall. The years in which I lived there were spent arguing over a downtown ballpark - the plans were bogged by upstarts, land-misers, greed, political agendas and personal vendettas and the idea of a downtown ballpark was eventually thrown away. Now, it is 2 years later, and the news that Atlanta will be pulling their team comes.

Let's hope it doesn't happen here in Charlotte.

I saw the same thing. They're moving the team to Gwinnet County, Georgia, not far from Atlanta. What is interesting, though, are some of the details of the deal as reported in the Atlanta Constitution. They have to have the new ballpark ready by March 9. 2009. That's despite the fact one would have to think they're not as far along in their planning as the Knights are. Should that give us some reason for optimisim that the new Charlotte ballpark could be ready for the 2009 season? Unfortunately, that isn't what we've been hearing, but there hasn't been any official word yet. Maybe we'll hear something after tonight if everything is approved.

Article

Edited January 15, 2008 by CharlotteDave

[HopHead]

So the deals for the Knights Stadium and Parks were OK'd tonight (as expected). Now we have some details of what Reese wanted. Apparently he offered to drop the lawsuits if the commissioners, among other things, gave him rights to 32 acres of land in 2nd Ward so he could build a 40,000 seat, retractable roof stadium that would be built to NCAA and MLB specifications. Where exactly does he have the money for something like this? So his idea is that we get an NCAA Men's Final Four and then let the building remain vacant until an MLB team decides they want to move here? That's just crazy. It would be like the Alamodome in San Antonio.

Edited January 16, 2008 by dbull75

[New Name]

So the deals for the Knights Stadium and Parks were OK'd tonight (as expected). Now we have some details of what Reese wanted. Apparently he offered to drop the lawsuits if the commissioners, among other things, gave him rights to 32 acres of land in 2nd Ward so he could build a 40,000 seat, retractable roof stadium that would be built to NCAA and MLB specifications. Where exactly does he have the money for something like this? So his idea is that we get an NCAA Men's Final Four and then let the building remain vacant until an MLB team decides they want to move here? That's just crazy. It would be like the Alamodome in San Antonio.

Oh God NO. This is the same hairbrained scheme that Tampa/St. Pete thought up to woo a baseball team. They built a multifunction facility on a whim that MLB "might" come, and used it for arena football or something like that for three years before MLB made their decision. Well they DID eventually get their team, and Tropicana Field is now not only known as the WORST park in baseball, but is stated for demolition now for a more respectable park next year. They got 10 years from that horrible place... 10 years of poor attendance, lack of local support and pride; and who could blame them? The D Ray operate in the red and it's because the plan was doomed from the start.

[Raintree21]

Thankfully they voted to reject his "offer." So I guess we can expect our tax money to have to fight more frivolous lawsuits filed by him and Diehl. I wonder if the county can file a countersuit against him?

[staffer]

So the deals for the Knights Stadium and Parks were OK'd tonight (as expected). Now we have some details of what Reese wanted. Apparently he offered to drop the lawsuits if the commissioners, among other things, gave him rights to 32 acres of land in 2nd Ward so he could build a 40,000 seat, retractable roof stadium that would be built to NCAA and MLB specifications. Where exactly does he have the money for something like this? So his idea is that we get an NCAA Men's Final Four and then let the building remain vacant until an MLB team decides they want to move here? That's just crazy. It would be like the Alamodome in San Antonio.

I can top that. if the city will give me rights to the entire 3rd Ward, I will build a 100,000 seat NASCAR track. It will have a roof, with a landfill on top. The indoor track will also be built to specifications for Premiere League Football, where I propose Manchester United will relocate.

[Guest]

^^HAHA

What really kills me about this, is not just his selfishness/stupidity but the fact that he wants a RETRACTABLE ROOF. Last time I looked out my window I was in the south, and as far as I can gather/remember baseball lasts from april until september, during a time period where it doesn't get cold in the south, and that is the general reason for a retractable roof stadium. Sure It could be good to keep people cool, but sunburns and heat strokes are just part of americas pastime. Not to mention the $800,000,000 price tag, I'm sure the citizens of charlotte are going to want that. Hes trying to play the bruton smith power card that he just doesn't have.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Guest

[HopHead]

^^HAHA

What really kills me about this, is not just his selfishness/stupidity but the fact that he wants a RETRACTABLE ROOF. Last time I looked out my window I was in the south, and as far as I can gather/remember baseball lasts from april until september, during a time period where it doesn't get cold in the south, and that is the general reason for a retractable roof stadium. Sure It could be good to keep people cool, but sunburns and heat strokes are just part of americas pastime. Not to mention the $800,000,000 price tag, I'm sure the citizens of charlotte are going to want that. Hes trying to play the bruton smith power card that he just doesn't have.

I think the retractable roof, while maybe sounding silly here, would be used to make it a multi-purpose venue. That way Charlotte would be able to get an NCAA Final Four. Bobcats Arena, while being a state of the art arena, isn't big enough to meet NCAA requirements for a Final Four--that's why we get the Regional Finals. I'm not sure on the number but I think the NCAA requires 35k-40k minimum for seating at a Final Four now. Agreed, I wouldn't want it knowing that it would be more money out of my pocket. I think the only way Charlotte gets a retractable roof stadium is for the Panthers to build one some day... way down the road...

[Andyc545]

I think the retractable roof, while maybe sounding silly here, would be used to make it a multi-purpose venue. That way Charlotte would be able to get an NCAA Final Four. Bobcats Arena, while being a state of the art arena, isn't big enough to meet NCAA requirements for a Final Four--that's why we get the Regional Finals. I'm not sure on the number but I think the NCAA requires 35k-40k minimum for seating at a Final Four now. Agreed, I wouldn't want it knowing that it would be more money out of my pocket. I think the only way Charlotte gets a retractable roof stadium is for the Panthers to build one some day... way down the road...

That would be a lot of money just for one or two final four games. Certainly, Charlotte is in no need of a roof. The only time those work good are in 1) Phoenix's ball park, which I went to, where it was 120 degrees and the only way of making it through a game was sitting in an ACed dome and 2) cold weather, like Toronto Blue Jay's which gets a decent amount of rain from the lake and heavy snow during the winter, which they use the stadium as mixed-use. Anyway, point is, Charlotte's got probally some of the most perfect, arguably, in the US and rarely hits the extremes that we see in the north and south. It's one reason so many people are locating here in the first place.

[Justadude]

It would be nice if the county could convince a judge that Reese is basically blowing smoke via the legal system, and file some kind of injunction to prevent him from initiating any more suits on the subject. While I can see the legitimacy in opposing the land swap from a civic-accountability standpoint, it's very clear that Reese's motivation is based on personal profit. If every nutcase was allowed to indefinitely delay public projects in this manner, we'd still be waiting for I-277 to be completed.

[CharlotteDave]

It turns out the Knights, barring some sort of court injunction, are still planning to have the new park ready at some point during the 2009 season. I found the following excerpt at the WBTV website:

The General Manager of the Knights told WBTV News he has all but given up on having opening day in Charlotte next year. However, they are hoping to start playing baseball in Center City during the 2009 season.

[Charlotte_native]

Apparently he offered to drop the lawsuits if the commissioners, among other things, gave him rights to 32 acres of land in 2nd Ward so he could build a 40,000 seat, retractable roof stadium that would be built to NCAA and MLB specifications.

What a fruitcake. That would possibly be the worst use of that land forgetting whether baseball eventually came or not. We need the housing, especially the affordable element, the retail, and the other components that are coming to 2nd Ward FAR MORE than another sports venue (and I completely support the Arena, Baseball in3rd, and the Stadium -- but enough is enough). A big stadium built just to see if someone would want to occupy it...Brilliant.

[HopHead]

What a fruitcake. That would possibly be the worst use of that land forgetting whether baseball eventually came or not. We need the housing, especially the affordable element, the retail, and the other components that are coming to 2nd Ward FAR MORE than another sports venue (and I completely support the Arena, Baseball in3rd, and the Stadium -- but enough is enough). A big stadium built just to see if someone would want to occupy it...Brilliant.

Agreed. Nothing is worse than having an empty stadium waiting for a tenent. I saw that Tampa waited 8 years before they got the Devil Rays to play in their stadium. I've driven by that place while in Tampa. It's the ugliest thing I've seen. I'm sure that made a lot of residents happy. If MLB does ever come here, I'm sure there will be land available, probably outside 277, but it will be there.

[dxartist]

Sounds like he's trying to save face by "offering" a settlement after getting his lawsuits dismissed several times. I hope he keeps racking up legal bills. Serves him right.

[Raintree21]

Sounds like he's trying to save face by "offering" a settlement after getting his lawsuits dismissed several times. I hope he keeps racking up legal bills. Serves him right.

Only problem is, he is also costing us, the taxpayers, legal bills as well. Hopefully the next judge will force him to pay our legal expenses as well.

[Charlotte_native]

Ah but for tort reform. Classic example of frivolous lawsuits. One that files a suit for the sake of filing a suit should be required to pay for everyone else's expenses if it can be shown the plaintiff never really expected to win in the first place.

[dubone]

I am not sure why, if he has had his past lawsuits dismissed, he is able to get away with all the new ones. Clearly if he believes the county should help provide land for a MLB stadium he is not opposed to the concept of doing that. It is so obvious that he is just relunctant to admit he wasted his money drawing up those dreamboat plans and now must toss them in the trash.

I'm at a point where I understand the criticism of doing a ballpark downtown, but it is certainly the county's prerogative to lease land for that purpose. Wasting taxpayer money on lawsuits for the purpose of giving HIM the lease instead of the Knights is just ridiculous, which is why all of us can think of nothing more to say than ridicule.

[rockhilljames]

I can't think of a worse use of the 2nd Ward land than this. I think it's short-sighted to build a baseball stadium that you can't expand, but let's be realistic. By the time Charlotte is ready for major-league baseball, they'll have to have a new stadium anyway.

I love how he offered to MOVE the old high-school gym someplace else as a museum or something. Yeah, that's just what we need, tear down another historical building and move it somewhere out of context. Worked great for the Mint. Idiot.

No, what we need is to build a neighborhood around the gym, and use it as the neighborhood's center piece, complete with Park and a small commercial strip and a new school to serve downtown residents.

[Commoner]

Ah but for tort reform. Classic example of frivolous lawsuits. One that files a suit for the sake of filing a suit should be required to pay for everyone else's expenses if it can be shown the plaintiff never really expected to win in the first place.

You've described, in a roundabout way, Rule 11 of the Federal and NC Rules of Civil Procedure. An attorney who files a pleading must sign it. By signing, the attorney represents to the court that the pleading ... "is not being presented for any improper purpose, such as to harass, cause unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation" and also represents that "claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument" and that "the factual contentions have evidentiary support.*"

There are many judge-determined remedies for violation, including monetary and nonmonetary sanctions.

*Those are excerpts taken from the Federal rule - extracted for brevity.

[Justadude]

I can't think of a worse use of the 2nd Ward land than this. I think it's short-sighted to build a baseball stadium that you can't expand, but let's be realistic. By the time Charlotte is ready for major-league baseball, they'll have to have a new stadium anyway.

As long as the stadium isn't completely pigeonholed on its lot, it will be expandable. There are plenty of examples of places like Soldier Field, Wrigley Stadium, etc. which were not built for expansion, but a little engineering work produced a solution. You can always go vertical when adding seating capacity, unless there is just absolutely no room at all on the edges of the stadium.

[Charlotte_native]

You've described, in a roundabout way, Rule 11 of the Federal and NC Rules of Civil Procedure. An attorney who files a pleading must sign it. By signing, the attorney represents to the court that the pleading ... "is not being presented for any improper purpose, such as to harass, cause unnecessary delay, or needlessly increase the cost of litigation" and also represents that "claims, defenses, and other legal contentions are warranted by existing law or by a nonfrivolous argument" and that "the factual contentions have evidentiary support.*"

There are many judge-determined remedies for violation, including monetary and nonmonetary sanctions.

*Those are excerpts taken from the Federal rule - extracted for brevity.

Thanks so much for that. It is interesting to read -- though I feel Reece is acting a bit like a fool with what he is and has been doing, he must have a level of confidence that his actions won't fall into what you've posted, but from my reading and intrepretation it would seem to fit precisely. Obviously I'm not an attorney and don't know the details of his various suits or the grounds for them. Perhaps the first few don't qualify but after additional suits when earlier attempts have failed this would enter the realm of this rule.

It really is mind boggling for me to read his quotes and threats to the counsel about never giving up and the fight they will have on their hands. Why waste everyones time on something that has absolutely no chance at all? It really galls me that he feels he should hold up something that has so much support (or at least not much other opposition). 'It's my way or no way' is about as selfish as it gets.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[C_C_Planner]

So the deals for the Knights Stadium and Parks were OK'd tonight (as expected). Now we have some details of what Reese wanted. Apparently he offered to drop the lawsuits if the commissioners, among other things, gave him rights to 32 acres of land in 2nd Ward so he could build a 40,000 seat, retractable roof stadium that would be built to NCAA and MLB specifications. Where exactly does he have the money for something like this? So his idea is that we get an NCAA Men's Final Four and then let the building remain vacant until an MLB team decides they want to move here? That's just crazy. It would be like the Alamodome in San Antonio.

It hasn't been mentioned in a while, so I will do it here. The City has a Second Ward Neighborhood Master Plan, and it doesn't include baseball. It does have an urban school opportunity as one of its goals, as well as a distinct pedestrian oriented neighborrhood with a variety of housing options, improved neighborhood connectivity, integrated mixed use development and neighborhodd services. His "offer" is inconsistent with all the work in 2001 and 2002 leading to adoption of the Plan. There, I have saved the County a ridiculous amount of money.

[dubone]

There is also the factor that Inner 3rd Ward is developing in a way where it will pretty much be all high rises, which is much more able to absorb any negatives that go with sports complexes, as there is enough density around it to keep street activity high and so forth. 2nd Ward will develop in a midrise fashion, which will have much more risk of impact from a massive major league sized stadium.

It is not only a massive redirect from the 2nd Ward Plan, but it doesn't make any sense. The 3rd Ward location has all the existing parking infrastructure that a stadium with a different peak season can use very well. 2nd Ward just doesn't have any of that.

Either way, this has been debated for years, and the public leaders have chosen a direction. No one has ever elected Reese to speak for the people, yet he is trying to set public policy to benefit himself.