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Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward


dubone

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There is also the factor that Inner 3rd Ward is developing in a way where it will pretty much be all high rises, which is much more able to absorb any negatives that go with sports complexes, as there is enough density around it to keep street activity high and so forth. 2nd Ward will develop in a midrise fashion, which will have much more risk of impact from a massive major league sized stadium.

It is not only a massive redirect from the 2nd Ward Plan, but it doesn't make any sense. The 3rd Ward location has all the existing parking infrastructure that a stadium with a different peak season can use very well. 2nd Ward just doesn't have any of that.

Either way, this has been debated for years, and the public leaders have chosen a direction. No one has ever elected Reese to speak for the people, yet he is trying to set public policy to benefit himself.

I completely agree. I almost wish he'd register a username so he could defend his "proposal." All he's done is invoke the courts to stop a plan that, for all intents, does "speak for the people." In addition to his plan being a deviation from elected officials' debated, (mostly) transparent and "popular" plan for a ballpark, he has yet to court public opinion in any respect. There's no website, no press release (to my knowledge), no ad campaign ... there's nothing, except for lawsuits seeking injunctions against the "popular" (as in by-the-people) course of action. I wish the County would hammer him in the court of public opinion, much like we do here.

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As long as the stadium isn't completely pigeonholed on its lot, it will be expandable. There are plenty of examples of places like Soldier Field, Wrigley Stadium, etc. which were not built for expansion, but a little engineering work produced a solution. You can always go vertical when adding seating capacity, unless there is just absolutely no room at all on the edges of the stadium.

Actually, it's Wrigley Field (you pulled a Jeff Gordon :D). If they were smart, they would design the stadium in such a way where it can be expandable. I'm sure they are taking that into consideration. That would cool about going verticle for seating capacity, since it would feel you are on top of the action.

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Now that the deal is done, I thought some might be interested in this old article from the Charlotte Business Journal, the Feb 7th issue. It has a question and answer session with Bruce Miller from HOK, who is leading the Knights stadium - design team. Talk is cheap, but I have to say I like his basic philosophy. I just hope the new ballpark ends up being one that has a little bit of personality or flavor to it. From my experience following baseball, the backdrop seems to be far and away the biggest factor in determining that, so the fact that this ballpark will have a pretty dramatic view of the Charlotte skyline is encouraging. Below is one excerpt from the article quoting Bruce Miller:

"I'm not sure, but I think some of the initial concepts are very strong in terms of the orientation of the park, its ability to open up to the public park, the street. I think that's going to be very unique to this park. It's very, very close to the downtown core. And so I think the skyline, in some of the studies that we did, even surprised us and caught our attention as to how close it is, and how much it really is going to feel like an environment of the ballpark. It's really exciting to us that you start to create outdoor space based on the surrounding buildings."

I've lived my entire life in Charlotte and have attended a lot of sporting events, both minor and major league, but my best sports memories are of minor leauge baseball in old Crockett Park and before that when it was known as Griffith Park. There may have been individual moments with either the Hornets or Panthers that were more thrilling, but in a collective sense, those days in the old ballpark were the best. I just hope they can capture that same type of feeling with this new ballpark, and hopefully even better.

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According to a story on WBTV news last night, it looks like they're finally doing what some here have suggested. I only caught part of the story, but apparently Reese has received a letter informing him that he'll be held personally accountable for all expenses if he continues going forward with these lawsuits. To paraphrase Reese, he said he wouldn't be detered by threats, but that it does show people what it's like to fight city hall.

It's good to see that they're starting to fight back a little bit.

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Exactly what they SHOULD do. He is not elected, and the elected officials have the right to do this. A random person shouldn't be allowed to cause thousands of dollars worth of costs by continuing a string of baseless lawsuits without consequences. A year's worth of losses from not being able to collect the property taxes would be fairly significant, let alone the legal defense costs.

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A question for you lawyers. Is the city lawyer and county lawyer on the city and county payroll respectively, or do they work for a private practice on retainer, and bill per hour?

Kinda related and unrelated but the county hired an outside lawyer to handle the Nick Mackey Sheriff case. Not sure if they do that just for special cases or if the same thing would happen here if Reese actually made it to trial.

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A question for you lawyers. Is the city lawyer and county lawyer on the city and county payroll respectively, or do they work for a private practice on retainer, and bill per hour?

They're on the payroll. The City Attorney (at least -- not sure about County) also has a staff of attorneys reporting to him. Last I heard, it was between 5-10 lawyers. They do an impressive job of handling most items in-house (thus saving taxpayers loads) but the County (at least and, I assume, the City) has been known to retain outside counsel. Usually larger NC-based firms. I know the school board has worked with Helms Mullis & Wicker's Charlotte office on occasion.

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I heard this morning Reese has filled another lawsuit. Can the City do anything to stop him? Or will he continue to stop the Knights from bulding the stadium? forever

According to the paper he filed at least a couple suits. The county if FINALLY firing back and saying they will counter-sue and will do some manuever that will make him financially liable for any costs incurred with this.

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If the stadium is financed with loans to the team, would they be able to begin construction before the lawsuits are resolved? If they began construction and a lawsuit won, than money is just thrown away and the banks don't really have any valuable collatoral, right?

I really wish Reese would just accept his fate, but I also wish the county would just move forward on all other components of the deal. I think that 2nd Ward should be developable as planned and the parks should be developable as planned, and just let the stadium land lay still until the matters are resolved. That way, if Reese wins, we still have the park completed and 2nd Ward well on its way.

Frankly, though, you would think that Reese realizes that his plan called for significant public investment. Not only does he not have a tenant to make his plan a reality, but he has also made significant enemies among the public servants. How does he expect that he will somehow be given such a massive public subsidy for him to build his dream after behaving this way? He has basically been rejected multiple times at the preliminary stage. His plan is absolutely not happening. And while I totally agree that Charlotte will eventually be in contention for a MLB team, there is no way that they will accept a simple expansion of a ~$30m AAA stadium. MLB stadiums are costing around $1b now, and a team being sway to move would want the top of the line, especially if they are going to expect to draw fans from all around the Carolinas.

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Most people have probably seen it already but here is the link

I'm far from an expert on the topic, but from what was said last week it appears the Knights are planning to move ahead with construction until someone tells them that they can't.

Concerning another aspect of the Knight's situation, there is an article in this week's Charlotte Business Journal that talks about how the business community is expected to be very supportive, but I'm not a subscriber, so I was unable to access the full article.

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Concerning another aspect of the Knight's situation, there is an article in this week's Charlotte Business Journal that talks about how the business community is expected to be very supportive, but I'm not a subscriber, so I was unable to access the full article.

That is one of the most interesting things about all of this to me -- there is no large opposition to this plan at all other than Reese (primarily) and just a few others. Otherwise about everyone else, business community, public sector, those that live in the affected areas, etc, are supportive of all of this. The Rhino Times doesn't even b*tch about it very much. This is one of the few recent public works projects that aren't really costing us much if anything. The various components are either being trades or sold by the county, infrastructure money that we are contributing would be done anyway in the Third Ward area, and the Knights aren't asking us to pay and build, they are. Of all the projects to have a lonely citizen try and put a stop to, this one just doesn't make sense.

Though I'm glad the Bobcats Arena and BofA Stadium are here, I could at least see the reasoning of those opposed -- I just had a different opinion. In this case I feel we are all being held hostage by an individual who has too much legal knowledge but not enough common sense or care for what the rest of us want.

Edited by Charlotte_native
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Ree[cs]e was interviewed on WFNZ's Morning Sports Page this morning. I only caught the last couple minutes, but I called the show, and they said they would make the interview available on their web site. If they do, it should be up on wfnz.com within a day or two.

All I caught was the host (Gary) pressing him about "If you have financial backers lined up, I don't understand why they aren't with you in this battle. Why are they making you go it alone?". Reese's answer, predictably, mostly avoided the question.

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The city and county needs to move forward with this. It amazes me why its taken so long to do this. Durham and Greensboro already have downtown ballparks and a $130 million downtown ballpark project is currently under construction in Winston-Salem which is a plan that took less than five years to put together and break ground without any hiccups. A city thats usually the first to do it will be the last to do it in this case. There should be NO effort to stop or delay this project in Charlotte even if its just one man doing it.

Edited by cityboi
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Okay, the interview is up now:

http://www.wfnz.com/Morning-Sport-Page/136201

Down on the left-hand side. I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. I apologize for posting a straight link without any content summary.

I know this sounds bad, bc to this point ive hated Reese... But after that i cant really disagree and i now understand why he has such a hold on everything... The guy knows his stuff...

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Reese definitely knows his material but his answers still don't convince me. He does finally admit several times that the Marlins are a thing of the past and are not moving.

A few questions and answers paraphrased from the interview:

Where are the people who support your position?

They are sort of in the background. If you knew the names I had in my cell phone.... Folks don't want to get involved until a certain point.

If you have local investors, why are they making you do this on your own...?

I'm involved in an assemblage plan...Developers are looking at their own individual plans like a mall or a building, not the whole project, which is what I am doing.

What is the next step for you?

Continue the litigation and continue dialogue with the city and county.

Are you funding these lawsuits yourself?

No one is helping me. I've got probably $1/2 million invested in them.

Edited by Raintree21
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I know this sounds bad, bc to this point ive hated Reese... But after that i cant really disagree and i now understand why he has such a hold on everything... The guy knows his stuff...

I agree and disagree. He knows what HE wants, but after listening to this I still don't feel this makes any sense.

1) the whole thing about this being an assemblage and developers look at one part and blah blah blah...that doesn't make any sense. Yes, developers might be looking at just one part, but that doesn't make them want to hide in the shadows or make them not participate at this point. the whole land swap that IS going on involved a couple developers and many other businesses. It, too, could be classified as an assemblage by his own definition. Spectrum, Drakeford, Mass Mutual, they aren't hiding during this -- I just don't believe Reese has anyone or any entity that is significant behind him on this. he evaded the question quite well with talking points.

2) he still barely addresses why you would build a stadium without a team that wants to use it.

3) If you knew the numbers I have stored in my cell phone? What? Goofy.

4) I like his thoughts on a whole transformation of the 2nd Ward area BUT they are already doing that -- he just wants his plan not the current one.

His comments about not needing the stadium near Tryon -- OK, fine, but if MLB came to town years down the road do they HAVE to be right in the middle anyway? What about out along a light rail line presuming more are built or somewhere along South Blvd. He speaks and says we have to do this NOW or it won't be possible -- bull.

I hope he is telling the truth that this has cost him half a mil. I hope he has to pay whatever his pipe-dream is costing us as well.

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If you have local investors, why are they making you do this on your own...?

I'm involved in an assemblage plan...Developers are looking at their own individual plans like a mall or a building, not the whole project, which is what I am doing.

Any of us that work with developers or are somehow in the business can easily say this just doesn't make sense. First if you are considering a mall you do go to potential tenants BEFORE investing all of your money to see if the necessary ones are interested. Then you use those names to draw out other tenants to fill the space. Developers look at the WHOLE project, in a mall or buildling, to to make sure they see the vision and want to be part of it -- not just a narrow piece of the puzzle.

It appears he is actually saying that no one is on board but if he got his assemblage that he would THEN go seek development partners. Working backwards. And IF there really are developers he has talked to and they aren't willing to come forward it would appear that they aren't necessarily buying into his vision, or they don't think this will ever come to pass, or they don't want to be associated with either the plan or him.

So we are supposed to put all other plans and progress on hold so this man can see IF 1) major league baseball will come one day in the unknown future, and 2) to see IF he can land developers for the rest.

Edited by Charlotte_native
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The article I mentioned earlier from the Business Journal is now fully available to non subscribers. It paints a very encouraging picture including the following quote from Max Muhleman:

"It's almost a romantic reaction to baseball when you talk about having it downtown," Muhleman says. "The business community, from what we found, will embrace it in a big way."

article from Charlotte Business Journal

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The article I mentioned earlier from the Business Journal is now fully available to non subscribers. It paints a very encouraging picture including the following quote from Max Muhleman:

"It's almost a romantic reaction to baseball when you talk about having it downtown," Muhleman says. "The business community, from what we found, will embrace it in a big way."

article from Charlotte Business Journal

Good read. I'm anxious to see what 5 major corporations will provide sponsorship. Most definitely BofA and/or Wachovia will I assume. I get a funny feeling we will see a corporate name on the stadium before we do at Bobcats Arena.

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Regardless of what Reese and his supporters are doing VS what the CCCP and their supporters are doing for their version, I think the UrbanPlanet reader has to ask again what good does a baseball stadium, or for that matter any single use sports venue, do for making downtown Charlotte an interesting city that people will want to visit and live in, I will still contend there are many many better uses for the land than what is proposed.

The argument now has devolved into a legal one over which group of investors will make money off this public land. At face value, it doesn't sound like its going to do much for the common person. While we ponder over this here, Seattle, IMO a much more progressive city, has decided that sports teams don't do much for a city. More here

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