Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[monsoon]

...... It really is amazing how one man is holding this entire process in limbo because he thinks we can do better. I can think of a few things he can go do...

If they don't want the courts involved then.......

• The Knights are always free to go find a plot of land, pay for it on their own, and build their stadium just like most other private for-profit businesses. They don't of course because they are looking for a free ride from the taxpayer.
  
• The Charlotte city council and/or the Mecklenburg county government could just vote to use tax money to build the stadium just like they did with the NBA arena. They don't because they don't want the political heat for it. People are sick and tired of these tax give aways and any politician knows that such a direct vote would be suicide these days.
  

The hold up is coming from the fact the Knights are asking for considerable public assistance which has been constructed in such a way to make it seem like it isn't costing anyone anything. And it's being done on public land where said land was purchased by bonds with wording to specifically exclude this land from a baseball park. They are using a technicality in the wording to get around the intent. The courts usually don't like this. Thus Reese is perfectly in his rights, as a citizen, to challenge this handout in the court. If there was no merit the judges could throw it out, but they haven't. Just because some people want to see baseball in the center city doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to do this.

So in the end, the economy and specifically the worthless dollar (which is making everything more expensive) and no doubt the end of free credit has most likely doomed this project. It would be my guess this project, like 210 Trade, The Park, the Nascar building, etc. did not have a sound business plan in the first place and this is being used as an excuse to walk away.

[uptownliving]

And it's being done on public land where said land was purchased by bonds with wording to specifically exclude this land from a baseball park.

Actually the land was not purchased by Park Bonds....it was purchased almost 10 years ago in anticipation that the new Charlotte Arena would be going on or near the land. Of course that never happened. So Mecklenburg County is perfectly within their rights to allow a baseball stadium on the land as there are no legal restrictions on the land.

They are using a technicality in the wording to get around the intent. The courts usually don't like this. Thus Reese is perfectly in his rights, as a citizen, to challenge this handout in the court. If there was no merit the judges could throw it out, but they haven't. Just because some people want to see baseball in the center city doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to do this.

I think you have this backwords....all 4 lawsuits filed by Reese HAVE BEEN DISMISSED by 4 different Judges....you are right...the Courts don't like the types of suits that Reese has filed....in all cases they have said they don't have merit.

[monsoon]

....I think you have this backwords....all 4 lawsuits filed by Reese HAVE BEEN DISMISSED by 4 different Judges....you are right...the Courts don't like the types of suits that Reese has filed....in all cases they have said they don't have merit.

Actually.... A NC Judge has ruled that a portion of one of Reese's cases has merit and it moves forward.

.Actually the land was not purchased by Park Bonds....it was purchased almost 10 years ago in anticipation that the new Charlotte Arena would be going on or near the land.

The land was purchased in 2001 for a park according to the Mecklenburg county commissioners. The intent of that property was discussed when the Knights came to the Mecklenburg County commission asking for the 3rd ward park property before the 2004 Bond Referendum. You can read the rather lengthy discussion here.. Clearly there was concern with moving forward with the bond package if this was a serious consideration. The conclusion was that the people were promised a park for the money.

[uptownliving]

Actually.... A NC Judge has ruled that a portion of one of Reese's cases has merit and it moves forward.

That case was dismissed. All of Reese's cases are "moving forward" because he has appealed all of them.

The conclusion was that the people were promised a park for the money.

And we are getting one. Groundbreaking is in November and 100% of the Park Bond Money will be used for the park.

0% of the Park Bond Money was used for the Baseball Stadium or Land. That is why Judge after Judge after Judge after Judge has ruled against Reese.

The lawsuits are really an intentional sideshow that Reese is putting on. He knows he is unlikely to win any of them...the whole point of the lawsuits is to use them as a delay tactic. As was published in the paper today...Banks are going to be unwilling to loan the Kinghts money for the stadium until the lawsuits are over and done with. In the meantime construction costs continue to go up. Reese's goal all along was to delay this project long enough to kill it. And then he will go back to the County/City with his plan for his own stadium which will require about 10 times the taxpayer subsidie as the Knight's....Basically Jerry is skirting with extortion.

Edited September 24, 2008 by uptownliving

[atlrvr]

Uptown living....you mentioned that groundbreak begins on the park in November. Is this for certain, or does it depend on the lawsuit. In other words, will the landswap with MassMutual still move forward without resolution on the Knights' stadium parcel.

[sleightofhand]

While taking a chance of getting flamed I think for the first time since this whole debate/lawsuit started I might be considering that Reece is on to something. While I would love to have a beautiful minor league park right outside my window I'm now wondering if we should wait and see if we could carry a MLB team. I have a feeling that cost of upfitting a minor league park to a major league park would be too expensive. I could be dead wrong but I believe Charlotte is capable of housing a major league team.

[New Name]

While taking a chance of getting flamed I think for the first time since this whole debate/lawsuit started I might be considering that Reece is on to something. While I would love to have a beautiful minor league park right outside my window I'm now wondering if we should wait and see if we could carry a MLB team. I have a feeling that cost of upfitting a minor league park to a major league park would be too expensive. I could be dead wrong but I believe Charlotte is capable of housing a major league team.

I kind of feel this way too. And although it wouldn't be pretty (successful), big opportunities come from big chances. No cities will become world class without thinking big. Whether we would want to take the leap and be embarassed now or in 5 years or in 10 years, it's going to have to happen sometime. We will never wake up one morning and see a headline proclaiming "Charlotte now ready for the big leagues."

[UrbanFuture]

While taking a chance of getting flamed I think for the first time since this whole debate/lawsuit started I might be considering that Reece is on to something. While I would love to have a beautiful minor league park right outside my window I'm now wondering if we should wait and see if we could carry a MLB team. I have a feeling that cost of upfitting a minor league park to a major league park would be too expensive. I could be dead wrong but I believe Charlotte is capable of housing a major league team.

I respectfully disagree. (now I will risk getting flamed) Baseball, in my honest opinion, is a dying sport and certainly no longer the national pastime. The new national sport pastime is football, especially with the younger generations. Putting hundreds of millions into a MLB stadium and using even more acreage than the minor league stadium would take in Uptown and HOPING the league that doesn't want to expand will put a team here is just plain irresponsible, for whomever may be footing the bill and/or land and the city. /End horrid run-on sentence

[monsoon]

Uptown living....you mentioned that groundbreak begins on the park in November. ...

Have the Knights even finished the necessary engineering drawings and filed the paperwork to get any building permits?

[UrbanFuture]

I kind of feel this way too. And although it wouldn't be pretty (successful), big opportunities come from big chances. No cities will become world class without thinking big. Whether we would want to take the leap and be embarassed now or in 5 years or in 10 years, it's going to have to happen sometime. We will never wake up one morning and see a headline proclaiming "Charlotte now ready for the big leagues."

Why doesn't Charlotte think big in terms of urban innovation instead of trying to play catch up with the joneses cities of the world. Charlotte should take the lead in sustainable urban fabric/development, effective light rail system, or other innovative and adaptive world class projects. At the risk of being off the topic of the baseball stadium, Charlotte can certainly establish itself in much more effective and innovative ways than a baseball stadium.

[Guest]

Have the Knights even finished the necessary engineering drawings and filed the paperwork to get any building permits?

From how I interpret what Uptown Living and ATLRVR said they were referring to the Romare Bearden Park, not the Knights Baseball stadium.

[tiblerbrit]

I have to agree with QC Kid. MLB is a dying sport. It will only become more popular and sustainable when they revamp the entire league. There are too many games and hardly any regulation. The lack of salary cap means too much inequality b/t big and small markets. There are so many games that individual ones don't really have any relevance until the end of the season between wildcard teams. Charlotte really needs to prove that it can sell out Bobcats and Panthers games regardless of their W/L record before an MLB team should be considered.

Edited September 24, 2008 by tiblerbrit

[uptownliving]

Uptown living....you mentioned that groundbreak begins on the park in November. Is this for certain, or does it depend on the lawsuit. In other words, will the landswap with MassMutual still move forward without resolution on the Knights' stadium parcel.

Meck Co took action earlier in the year to allow the Bearden Park to proceed independant of the Baseball Park. They will be funding it using short term COPS until the land swap happens. So to answer your question: Yes.

[CharlotteDave]

Ironically, two more of the Jerry Reese lawsuits are being heard today in Monroe, and they say there could be a decision on one or both before the day is over. Under the circumstances, I'm glad those decisions are imminent.

Concerning Charlotte's chances for a major league team, I'm one that believes the city could probably support it, but it has become a moot point: There simply aren't any franchises available and likely won't be any time soon. There are currently no plans for expansion and most of the struggling franchises from recent times now have new ballparks or new ones on the way. The Florida Marlins are about the only potential exception, but that situation is a total longshot. There is no indication they have any serious interest in Charlotte, and I know MLB will be very hesitant to give up on Florida. That's why I think Charlotte's best bet, for both its minor and major league aspirations, is to build this new minor league ballpark and hopefully quickly become one of the national attendance leaders. If that happens, which many expect with an uptown location, Charlotte would likely move back to the top of the list for future expansion candidates, just like it used to be back in the glory days of the Hornets.

[uptownliving]

Regarding MLB, what it comes down to is who is willing to pay for it. Right now, there is about zero political support for building a MLB baseball stadium from the City Council and County Commision. That leaves the private sector and the local banks. The local banks have said they are not interested in funding a local MLB stadium. And Jerry Rease with his grand plan has admitted there is no funding plan for it. So thats where we are...no one is willing to fund MLB in Charlotte currently.

[atlrvr]

Uptownliving...but how can they begin construction if they don't own the land? Certainly they wouldn't take the risk of improving land they don't own.

Unless I'm missing something, MassMutual still owns the land where Bearden Park is to go, correct?

I could care less if the minor league stadium happens or not, but I do want the rest of the land swap to occur.....

What happens if the land swap occurs, Bearden Park is built, and Reece ultimately prevails with his suit contending that the $9M must be spent at the site of the Knights stadium? Would the county have to expand the park to include that?

I guess what I'm getting to, is how does anything move forward without the county being at risk?

[New Name]

^ Regarding the "dying sport" comment. If you lived anywhere else other than the South, you would not feel that way. The South (and Texas) love football. Canada loves hockey. The North and Midwest love baseball. The West loves Basketball. (I know this is a generalization - but so is "dying sport.") And if you loved baseball, you wouldn't think there are too many games. You would think football has too few!

Random attendance records for MLB:

1970- 28,747,333

1977- 38,709,779

1982- 44,584,874

1989- 55,173,096

1993- 70,257,938

1999- 70,103,204

2001- 72,567,108

2004- 72,968,953

2007- 79,447,312

And although it's apples to oranges because of amount of games:

Baseball 2007 total - 583,604,696

Football 2007 total - 17,345,205

Edited September 24, 2008 by The Escapists

[uptownliving]

There won't be any land swaps until the lawsuits get resolved.

The Bearden Park would be a straightup purchase that won't be affected by the lawsuits. Meck Co has already given the County Manager authority to purchase the land and budgetted COPS money to purchase the land. At a later date, hopefully when all the lawsuits come to an end then Meck Co would get their money back through the land swap.

There never was any legally binding document that stipulated the Bond Money had to be spent on the land bordered by Graham, Mint, MLK, and 4th. So even if Meck Co lost the lawsuits it would mean that the Knights would not be able to build on that land...but Meck Co could sell the land to the highest bidder or put anything else on there besides a baseball stadium.

Edited September 24, 2008 by uptownliving

[atlrvr]

Thanks for the clarification about them straight purchasing the land. I'm glad that what I feel is the most important component of the plan can move forward.

As far as the ramifications if the county loses, isn't the premise of one of his lawsuits that that money IS earmarked for that particular site, or does the lawsuit contend that baseball is banned from that site. If its the former, then it seems the county is committed to putting $9M toward a park on that parcel. If it's the latter, then I agree, the county should just put the land up for bid if they lose.

[monsoon]

It should be noted, though I don't think it is mentioned here, that a few weeks ago a Judge ruled in favor of one of Reese's contentions the COPs used by the county as part of the stadium deal were invalid. Whether or not that affect the above, I don't know but the belief is that it will be months before it's settled.

[UrbanFuture]

^ Regarding the "dying sport" comment. If you lived anywhere else other than the South, you would not feel that way. The South (and Texas) love football. Canada loves hockey. The North and Midwest love baseball. The West loves Basketball.

Fair enough on the numbers, I am from Chicago originally, and also lived in Philly and Maryland and have been to all of their stadiums. I grew up going to games at Wrigley. Impressive attendance numbers for sure, and like any good argument with numbers on UP, we can manipulate them to say what we want to say. I would be happy to wager a blind bet that if you took viewership numbers into account that american football would top the MLB. How many bars and restaurants are packed watching baseball games on a given night? How many bars and restaurants are packed for football games 4-5 nights a week for NFL and college games? Superbowl viewership? 2008 was 98 million viewers for one game, with some estimates as high as 144 million.

Back to the topic at hand, in a city with a good support of the NFL and Nascar, poor support for the NBA, why would we spend a dime or space in the urban grid on a pipe dream (and it is, solely because of the fact MLB does not want to expand, this is not the field of dreams, they will not come just because we build it)? What would a MLB stadium contribute to Charlotte that a minor league stadium wouldn't?

[uptownliving]

It should be noted, though I don't think it is mentioned here, that a few weeks ago a Judge ruled in favor of one of Reese's contentions the COPs used by the county as part of the stadium deal were invalid. Whether or not that affect the above, I don't know but the belief is that it will be months before it's settled.

I'm sorry but that is not what the Judge said. It was a CYA move by the judge where he recommended having the Bonds reviewed by the Statewide Bond Commision...the Local Bond Commision approved the Bond sale a while ago. The Bonds have not been invalidated as you suggest. In fact they have already been sold on the bond market so having the State Commision review them is really just a formality at this point. The judge didn't say he thought the county was doing anything wrong.

[New Name]

Fair enough on the numbers, I am from Chicago originally, and also lived in Philly and Maryland and have been to all of their stadiums. I grew up going to games at Wrigley. Impressive attendance numbers for sure, and like any good argument with numbers on UP, we can manipulate them to say what we want to say. I would be happy to wager a blind bet that if you took viewership numbers into account that american football would top the MLB. How many bars and restaurants are packed watching baseball games on a given night? How many bars and restaurants are packed for football games 4-5 nights a week for NFL and college games? Superbowl viewership? 2008 was 98 million viewers for one game, with some estimates as high as 144 million.

Back to the topic at hand, in a city with a good support of the NFL and Nascar, poor support for the NBA, why would we spend a dime or space in the urban grid on a pipe dream (and it is, solely because of the fact MLB does not want to expand, this is not the field of dreams, they will not come just because we build it)? What would a MLB stadium contribute to Charlotte that a minor league stadium wouldn't?

Yeah we're off topic. I see it both ways. I think my only argument (and it's playing devil's advocate for -gasp- Jerry Reese), is that we're not interested in viewership numbers. We're interested in what would bring the most bodies to center city for a sporting event - minor league, or major league. And that's all subjective anyway.

I'm sure Reese is saying "why try to bring 10,000 people for a minor league game, when we could shoot for 30,000?" And it's a lofty and bold question - I will certainly admit that we would be lucky to get 15,000 or 20,000 - the lower attendance rate for a second tier city. But it's good for the city, exposure (my argument for the fact that baseball is not dying), and if a CLT MLB team were to play the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Cubs (teams with fans who travel for weekend series) Charlotte would certainly reap the benefits of their dollars. You will hardly find fans who travel for a minor league team weekend.

[monsoon]

It all seems like a moot point now if the Knights are saying they don't have the money to build the thing. What are the odds they are going to ask the taxpayers for another handout? I guess that people can blame this on Reese, but I would say that if they really had a working profitable plan then the thing would be going up now. I suspect there are other reasons the financing isn't there. It wouldn't be the first project this year to not have done a thorough job in this area.

[Guest]

What are the odds they are going to ask the taxpayers for another handout?

Could you enlighten us and list the other "handouts" are. I'm just curious to know. As of now this is a privately funded venue.