Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[Spartan]

Actually they could share parking with the Panther's stadium. I could see where they could build some sort of joint parking at the corner of that property and then free up some of the land on the city side of the football stadium for other uses. On that side of the stadium is where you do want residential housing. The downtown is served by multiple modes of transit, so it should be no issue for people working in the towers.

Downtown is served by multiple mode of transportation, but that part of Morehead Street is not. Its served by one or two bus routes. 277 and Morehead Street and the distance from Tryon St are HUGE psychological barriers for pedestrians.

Yeah but the Panthers are not looking to build any parking. They have all that they need.

And to walk to this site from the downtown office towers you have to cross 277 twice.....yes twice....Four times if you are making a round trip. Or you can walk through a tunnel under the railroad tracks. It would be a good 15 min+ walk to this site from most of the office towers.

If the Knights are counting on those office workers then I would say they would be less likely to walk to a Morehead site than the 3rd Ward site.

Parking for the Panthers is mostly in the garages within uptown. This site is an extra 5-10 minutes from the front of BofA Stadium.

[monsoon]

Downtown is served by multiple mode of transportation, but that part of Morehead Street is not. Its served by one or two bus routes. 277 and Morehead Street and the distance from Tryon St are HUGE psychological barriers for pedestrians.

You don't think that CATS would make an accommodation for a new baseball stadium?

Parking for the Panthers is mostly in the garages within uptown. This site is an extra 5-10 minutes from the front of BofA Stadium.

I recommend that you look at an satellite map of the area. There is a ton of parking and even a parking deck at the stadium. And I can tell you that I can walk the distance between these two places in less than 10 minutes.

[southslider]

I recommend that you look at an satellite map of the area.

I looked at the West Morehead area in Street View along Clarkson and/or South Cedar looking back towards Uptown, and what really struck me was how much BofA Stadium blocks the view from these post-Beazer properties.

Looking at both aerials and street views, the best comparable site in terms of area and views anywhere in Third Ward is ironically the Panthers practice fields. But there, the access is terrible, since it's along little Cedar Street, about halfway between the two thoroughfares of Fourth and Morehead.

If going just outside of Uptown, I'd suggest south of Carson and west of Mint in the pocket between Uptown and Wilmore, where it's a similar view angle and walk distance to LYNX. Plus, creating a superblock here up against freeways and railroads wouldn't be any loss, while the grid would be retained towards South End and LYNX.

Edited October 8, 2008 by southslider

[Andyc545]

I looked at the West Morehead area in Street View along Clarkson and/or South Cedar looking back towards Uptown, and what really struck me was how much BofA Stadium blocks the view from these post-Beazer properties.

Looking at both aerials and street views, the best comparable site in terms of area and views anywhere in Third Ward is ironically the Panthers practice fields. But there, the access is terrible, since it's along little Cedar Street, about halfway between the two thoroughfares of Fourth and Morehead.

If going just outside of Uptown, I'd suggest south of Carson and west of Mint in the pocket between Uptown and Wilmore, where it's a similar view angle and walk distance to LYNX. Plus, creating a superblock here up against freeways and railroads wouldn't be any loss, while the grid would be retained towards South End and LYNX.

What if they moved the Panther's training fields to the Beazer site, put in additional stands for audiences and possibly let a school use it also (not a full blown out stadium, a simpler training facility maybe even lighted, just a simple upgrade from the current one so it can get more use), sold off any remaining land or find an additional use for it like other sports fields (basketball, soccer) then moved the Baseball stadium to the current Panthers training site. It is closer and in a more connected area serving the business side of 3rd Ward and the residential low rise sides, is in walking distance to everything in uptown, wouldn't disrupt any connectivity as far as streets since this area is already blocking a lot of the street grid due to its current use and with the train tracks, and could possibly provoke the area to connect a few of the streets and pedestrian ways around the tracks and give some upgrades. There is train noise but that wouldn't be a concern with regards to a baseball stadium, and the property would still have great views. I'm not sure how residents would feel about a baseball stadium being right there, but at least it would only be AAA team and would be somewhat limited use. I'm looking at the site and it does appear smaller than the two current blocks it's expected on, but maybe it could work size-wise, I'm not sure. There would be another land swap, but it would be between a private sports team and land that is also privately owned. If only those train tracks weren't in the way...

[Bikeguy]

I think all of you have neglected to remember the lovely smells that Charlotte Pipe & Foundry continues to spew over the entire area. I wouldn't think that the Panthers would choose to move close to that cesspool... but that's just me.

[Eastman]

I think all of you have neglected to remember the lovely smells that Charlotte Pipe & Foundry continues to spew over the entire area. I wouldn't think that the Panthers would choose to move close to that cesspool... but that's just me.

The plant is scheduled to move. It would be gone by the time the park opened.

[atlrvr]

I can't believe no one posted this yesterday.

At the county commissioner's meeting on Tuesday, two commissioners said they are getting cold feet about continuing to support baseball AND funding the purchase of the site for 3rd Ward Park.

Dan Ramirez and Karen Bentley (both reupublicans that had supported the land swap) now say that they aren't sure they should move forward. With the death of Valerie Woodward, their is no clear majority. If at least one of them doesn't vote to move forward on the purchase of the land, then it will stall until Woodward is replaced, hopefully by someone who supports the plan.

[Spartan]

You don't think that CATS would make an accommodation for a new baseball stadium?

I recommend that you look at an satellite map of the area. There is a ton of parking and even a parking deck at the stadium. And I can tell you that I can walk the distance between these two places in less than 10 minutes.

What accommodations should CATS make?

I am very familiar with this area. I bike through that site on a regular basis. If you can make the walk in less than 10 minutes, great. But do you want to? Ten minutes is a long time for a pedestrian. Its going to take a lot to make the walk to this location bearable. Maybe if they can change that section of Morehead to look like the other portion of West Morehead near Wesley Heights, including fixing up and building new street retail in the area, then it might be ok.

[JonesQC]

I can't believe no one posted this yesterday.

At the county commissioner's meeting on Tuesday, two commissioners said they are getting cold feet about continuing to support baseball AND funding the purchase of the site for 3rd Ward Park.

Dan Ramirez and Karen Bentley (both reupublicans that had supported the land swap) now say that they aren't sure they should move forward. With the death of Valerie Woodward, their is no clear majority. If at least one of them doesn't vote to move forward on the purchase of the land, then it will stall until Woodward is replaced, hopefully by someone who supports the plan.

Do we know when the county comissioners will be voting on this? I know I'm going to call their offices and recommend they absolutely do vote for it or they can count on me voting Democrat next cycle.

I can see why Charlotte could put the baseball stadium on hold but what the heck is fundamental opposition to 3rd Ward Park? Not to mention both cancellations of these projects would be aweful for The Catalyst and other condos going up.

[HopHead]

I breifly saw an article in the "O" over the weekend that said Reese was getting ready to file yet another lawsuit. Did anyone pick up on this? What I can't believe at this point, given the current situation in the economy, is that he just keeps going...

[Guest]

I breifly saw an article in the "O" over the weekend that said Reese was getting ready to file yet another lawsuit. Did anyone pick up on this? What I can't believe at this point, given the current situation in the economy, is that he just keeps going...

I too saw the article in the O. It said that this time, however, he is focusing on Brooklyn Village and the "illegal activity" he seems to believe is there. Since this is another essential part of the land swap it would still effectively hurt the project. Honestly, he needs to be forcibly stopped. He is QUICKLY becoming my most hated man in Charlotte.

[monsoon]

.... He is QUICKLY becoming my most hated man in Charlotte.

I would say, only by the minority who wants the government to invest in professional sports.

[Guest]

I would say, only by the minority who wants the government to invest in professional sports.

I'm sorry but the city is spending more fighting these lawsuits than they would have been on the infrastructure improvements for this project, improvements that they would have needed to make anyway, no matter what was to be built there. Also, I think its a majority that would like more options of entertainment in charlotte, especially since it is 98% Privately funded.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Guest

[HopHead]

I'm sorry but the city is spending more fighting these lawsuits than they would have been on the infrastructure improvements for this project, improvements that they would have needed to make anyway, no matter what was to be built there. Also, I think its a majority that would like more options of entertainment in charlotte, especially since it is 98% Privately funded.

Couldn't agree with you more... Reese is on the short list of people that doesn't want baseball uptown. Err, sorry minor league baseball uptown. Given the choice, we'd rather have our Knights there then some over priced retractable roof stadium that will take 10 years to lure an MLB team to.

[monsoon]

^But that is a false dichotomy consisting of just two choices, which ignores the obvious 3rd choice. That would be no public money for any baseball stadium whether it be the Knights or Reese. I would say that a majority of people in this county feel this way.

[Guest]

^But that is a false dichotomy consisting of just two choices, which ignores the obvious 3rd choice. That would be no public money for any baseball stadium whether it be the Knights or Reese. I would say that a majority of people in this county feel this way.

And thats the option CURRENTLY. No public money for the baseball stadium. Its public money for infrastructure improvements that are already neccessary for whatever goes there. This is a privately funded venture, and will continue to be so until someone says otherwise. And at this point NOBODY has said otherwise. So you cannot play the publicly funded card until it actually is as such. Just like with the arena that was never publically funded. The only residents that paid for the Bobcats arena were ones staying in hotels.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Guest

[HopHead]

^But that is a false dichotomy consisting of just two choices, which ignores the obvious 3rd choice. That would be no public money for any baseball stadium whether it be the Knights or Reese. I would say that a majority of people in this county feel this way.

It's a false statement to say the city or county is actually paying for the stadium. It was to be privately funded. As nibletodell said, the only public money being used is for infrastructure improvements which needed to be done regardless.

[monsoon]

It's a false statement to say the city or county is actually paying for the stadium. ....

Indeed. Even I, someone who is familiar with what is going on still gets tripped up by the shell game they are playing on the public about this. The Knights will be getting free and exclusive use of land owned by the public with improvements worth $35M.

....The only residents that paid for the Bobcats arena were ones staying in hotels.

I am assuming you are not familiar with how the city came up with the money to pay for the arena. The city sold $100M worth of land, including the Charlotte Coliseum, to part part of the construction cost of the arena. This land was purchased by the taxpayers living in the city.

I find it funny that people think these things are not going up without taxpayer assistance.

[atlrvr]

Be fair guys....the county IS offering about $35M worth of land for $1 per year lease.

Edit...I see that Monsoon just posted this fact.

I certainly haven't seen any public opinion poll in the last 2 years suggesting that the majority don't want minor league baseball (the only poll I've seen at all was a CBJ poll indicicating the majority did), but that doesn't change the fact that it will be subsidized.

Whether or not it is a good use of money (or if the land should be sold to raise money) is a valid debate, though it doesn't seem either side is swayed.

I will say Monsoon, that you seem to support Reese's lawsuits, but his stated intent in blocking this is to build a professional stadium on different county owned land. It's not like he has some higher principals, rather he feels he's the one deserving the tax-payer subsidy.

[HopHead]

Be fair guys....the county IS offering about $35M worth of land for $1 per year lease.

Edit...I see that Monsoon just posted this fact.

I certainly haven't seen any public opinion poll in the last 2 years suggesting that the majority don't want minor league baseball (the only poll I've seen at all was a CBJ poll indicicating the majority did), but that doesn't change the fact that it will be subsidized.

Whether or not it is a good use of money (or if the land should be sold to raise money) is a valid debate, though it doesn't seem either side is swayed.

I will say Monsoon, that you seem to support Reese's lawsuits, but his stated intent in blocking this is to build a professional stadium on different county owned land. It's not like he has some higher principals, rather he feels he's the one deserving the tax-payer subsidy.

Ok, obviously I can't disagree that it's being subsidized. And yes, it could be debated whether or not it's a good use of money to give that land away. However, at this point and time who would actually pay $35 million for that land? I'd rather see something done with that land that can benefit the majority of the city. Whether it's a ballpark or a park, it's better off than being what it currently is today. THere are still plenty of other pieces of land in uptown that doesn't have to subsidized but could be sold off.

My biggest beef with Reese, and some would probably agree, is that Reese is only doing this b/c he has a pipe dream about bringing MLB here (which we can't support at this point IMO). It's not about the land being subsidized or a park not being there as his lawsuits are specifying.

[Charlotte_native]

I think we can all agree that the city/county is subsidizing the baseball stadium, should it ever come to be, but they aren't building it or paying for its construction. Though just technicalities, it isn't accurate to say we are building them a stadium.

Land swaps and land partnerships aren't out of the norm, though, and are done often with public land and also done between developers when there is a perception of benefit for both sides. Often when it is a public piece of land being traded the public is anticipating a return on their investment with increased tax base, tax revenues, and revenues from events coming to the venue.

I'm not arguing that the city/county should or shouldn't do this, all I really want is a 3rd Ward Park sometime soon.

[monsoon]

I will say Monsoon, that you seem to support Reese's lawsuits, but his stated intent in blocking this is to build a professional stadium on different county owned land. It's not like he has some higher principals, rather he feels he's the one deserving the tax-payer subsidy.

Oh I have no illusions he is filing those lawsuits for the good of anyone aside from himself. I do however support his right to go to court go have the actions of the local government tested against state laws on the proper use of tax money. He is being demonized unfairly for exercising this right.

IMO, what the county and city did, in concert with the CCCP was to play a shell game to hide the fact they were financing baseball with public funds. They got bitten by the fact that when you make the plumbing too complex, it gets clogged very easily.

If they don't want to be subject to lawsuits the state gives the local government plenty of options.

• They can simply put it to a local vote and then pay for it directly out of local property taxes. The vote part is optional but will give them political cover. The risk of course is it could get voted down.
  
• They can go to the NC legislature and ask for a special tax and/or rules as they have done before.
  
• The Knights can say the hell with all of it and go buy their own land.
  

Of course they won't do any of that because then this project would have to be justified to the people being asked to pay for it. In this economy, where potentially 1000s are going to lose their jobs in downtown, this would seem to be a frivolous piece of corporate welfare.

[uptownliving]

Reese would have sued no matter how the deal was stuctured. His intent is to extort the County to build HIM a ballpark. He has shown he will take any measure possible to make that a reality.

[Charlotte_native]

I do however support his right to go to court go have the actions of the local government tested against state laws on the proper use of tax money. He is being demonized unfairly for exercising this right.

I agree 100% about the right to question the government and to sue if you feel it is necessary. I do, however, think there should be some sort of limit as to what 1 person or 1 group can do to completely put everyone else at bay. He is costing us tens of thousands of dollars in court and attorney fees, and now to build will cost more as well.

I don't feel for Reece being demonized unfairly in the sense that this is pretty much a selfish act for his personal dream. Unlike the anti-transit folks a year ago who were representing a large number of people (that I disagreed with) he is just doing this for himself. The transit debate had an end-point and the people spoke. In this case the people aren't getting to 'speak' and a lone ranger is doing all of this himself. To that point I agree with the other part of your post -- put this up for public discussion, input, and a vote.

[HopHead]

Well, looks like Reese is throwing another curve ball here (no pun intended). He's now bidding $5 million for the current Knights stadium and surrounding area to build a hotel and entertainment complex: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/breaking/story/253509.html. I'm starting to believe we can probably forget them moving uptown. Reese is pretty intent on keeping them in SC.

Also, it sounds like the Knights org is strongly denying any interest in moving the team after 2009 to Richmond or anywhere else as reported on Ballpark Digest.