Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[monsoon]

I'v been wondering about this project. How long can the Knights wait for a new stadium? I would think they would try to find another site within the city since this is taking too long.

The Knights are free to do this at anytime. The reason they don't is the owner of the team isn't willing to take on the financial risk of such a project. It isn't a question of location, it's a question of using public funding to support a facility for a private business. This project failed for these reasons. Not as much on the principle, but on the shady shell game they created to hide this from the people. They opened themselves up to lawsuits, which happened, and the deal was so complicated that endless delays were introduced.

If they wanted to be honest about it, then just get either the city or the county to put a measure on the ballot that simply states, you will be voting to spend public tax money to build a base ball stadium in downtown Charlotte. If the voters vote Yea, then it's done deal. It could not be more simple.

[hokiehigh]

That makes sense. I could see the city pass it with a "Yea" vote. I would think they would push fast and hard for a new stadium due to the fact they are last in attendance. This should result in a poor bottom line. I would love to see it uptown but I would take it in Southend or somewhere else close to Uptown just to get it done fast.

[Eastman]

The Knights are free to do this at anytime. The reason they don't is the owner of the team isn't willing to take on the financial risk of such a project. It isn't a question of location, it's a question of using public funding to support a facility for a private business. This project failed for these reasons. Not as much on the principle, but on the shady shell game they created to hide this from the people. They opened themselves up to lawsuits, which happened, and the deal was so complicated that endless delays were introduced.

If they wanted to be honest about it, then just get either the city or the county to put a measure on the ballot that simply states, you will be voting to spend public tax money to build a base ball stadium in downtown Charlotte. If the voters vote Yea, then it's done deal. It could not be more simple.

Very much agree. If it passes, Reese just wasted a lot of his time and energy, and if it doesn't it wasn't mean't to be anyway. Done.

[InitialD]

If they wanted to be honest about it, then just get either the city or the county to put a measure on the ballot that simply states, you will be voting to spend public tax money to build a base ball stadium in downtown Charlotte. If the voters vote Yea, then it's done deal. It could not be more simple.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point is that public funds would NOT have been used to build a new baseball stadium, only to cover infrastructure upgrade costs around the stadium. The Knights would have leased the land for $1 a year for 49 years with options for two 25 year extensions. Being that the grass currently growing on the lot isn't paying a lease, I don't see how this would hurt the city.

Now due to Jerry "frivolous lawsuit" Reece the delays have made construction costs for the Knights skyrocket and possibly unafordable.

Are you sure you don't have the 3rd ward park & baseball stadium confused, because you've mentioned it several time now?

[Guest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point is that public funds would NOT have been used to build a new baseball stadium, only to cover infrastructure upgrade costs around the stadium. The Knights would have leased the land for $1 a year for 49 years with options for two 25 year extensions. Being that the grass currently growing on the lot isn't paying a lease, I don't see how this would hurt the city.

Now due to Jerry "frivolous lawsuit" Reece the delays have made construction costs for the Knights skyrocket and possibly unafordable.

Are you sure you don't have the 3rd ward park & baseball stadium confused, because you've mentioned it several time now?

You are very correct. This was a good project for the city, and the only costs to the city were neccessary whether there is a baseball stadium or not! The Knights did not cause the death of 3rd ward park, Jerry Reece did.

[InitialD]

You are very correct. This was a good project for the city, and the only costs to the city were necessary whether there is a baseball stadium or not! The Knights did not cause the death of 3rd ward park, Jerry Reece did.

But isn't 3rd ward park separate than the ballpark land swap deal? I think I remember reading on here that the city had purchased (or is purchasing the land) for the 3rd ward park outright? The hold up is that they can't sell the bonds right now in this economic climate that would cover the cost of building the park. If this is the case, then it would seem that the 3rd ward park issue is completely separate than the baseball stadium issue.

[Guest]

But isn't 3rd ward park separate than the ballpark land swap deal? I think I remember reading on here that the city had purchased (or is purchasing the land) for the 3rd ward park outright? The hold up is that they can't sell the bonds right now in this economic climate that would cover the cost of building the park. If this is the case, then it would seem that the 3rd ward park issue is completely separate than the baseball stadium issue.

I think the outright purchase had been mentioned on the site before, but I don't think that it had happened just yet. So, I could easily be wrong, but I think they are still tied together until the purchase of the land finalizes.

[uptownliving]

The purchase of the land by Mecklenburg County for Third Ward Park has already happened...they own the land. The issue is the bonds to construct the 3rd Ward Park that has been delayed.

So going back to monsoon and eastmans suggestions of putitng up a bond ballot....well there is nothing to vote on. Everything has already been purchased...and the park bonds for 3rd Ward Park were already approved by voters.

[monsoon]

"Shell game" is a euphemism for obfuscating the facts. The entire land swap, school system, county, city, CCCP dance to make this project happen was just that, a big shell game to hide the fact this project was getting a significant subsidy from the public. It's the same sort of thing where the banks got bailout money and then paid bonuses, paid for trips and private jets. "Oh we didn't use 'that' money for those things". No matter the terminology this project required assets and money from the taxpayer to move forward.

People should be upset the county and city government does these sort of things in the first place. In any case, the county is now faced with hitting the people with a tax increase because of the debt they run up over the past few years. In this new economy, building a baseball stadium downtown, when there is a perfectly good one sitting on city's border is a frivolous waste of tax money.

[New Name]

In this new economy, building a baseball stadium downtown, when there is a perfectly good one sitting on city's border is a frivolous waste of tax money.

That's one man's opinion - which everyone is entitled to. But the Knights are a commodity, and if they feel they can do better business closer to the epicenter of population, or with a "better" facility, then more power to them. I love baseball, but I am loath to go to South Carolina. And since I pay taxes, I support this.

Edited March 19, 2009 by The Escapists

[monsoon]

^Indeed it is an opinion and I pay taxes too. That is why I said just put it up to a vote in front of the people. We shall see how the chips fall.

[DMann]

Too bad we are a representative democracy. We elect people to make decisions based on the present and future good of society in general, not based on emotions. Seems like the democratic vote type were trying to whip up emotion against rail and the repersentatives we elected made an infrastructure decision. Seems like the voice of the people rose up over the "choo choo foes".

[uptownliving]

The entire land swap, school system, county, city, CCCP dance to make this project happen was just that, a big shell game to hide the fact this project was getting a significant subsidy from the public.

I think that is a pretty laughable claim considering all of the public meetings and public documents available online concerning this whole deal. It is all out there in the open for anyone that wants to know.

The Knights get the publically owned land for $1 per year...and they pay all the costs of building the stadium.

Mecklenburg County assumes the costs of upgrading sidewalks and streets around the stadium which the Knights will pay for upfront and then be rebated through the taxes they pay to Mecklenburg County.

[monsoon]

Too bad we are a representative democracy. We elect people to make decisions based on the present and future good of society in general, not based on emotions. Seems like the democratic vote type were trying to whip up emotion against rail and the repersentatives we elected made an infrastructure decision. Seems like the voice of the people rose up over the "choo choo foes".

Maybe you should bother to read above on why I said to put it up to a vote before resorting to pointless sarcasm. In any case our "representatives" have decided not to spend the money for this project. Given what you said, then I assume you are happy with the decision.

[InitialD]

What would the vote be? "Should the Knights be allowed to spend their own money to build a stadium like they have requested?"

I guess you could ask "Should the city allow the Knights to lease a vacant lot for free, or should it remain a vacant lot?" You could maybe put the land swap to a vote, but that's irrelevant when talking about the cost of building the stadium and who is paying for the stadium.

[ChesterCopperPot]

If the Reese lawsuits were dropped, couldn't the stadium start today with the Knight's money? How separate are the parcels, or in other words, is the land swap final? The stadium requires zero capital investment from the city. There won't be a park until the city can raise capital.

[uptownliving]

If the Reese lawsuits were dropped, couldn't the stadium start today with the Knight's money? How separate are the parcels, or in other words, is the land swap final? The stadium requires zero capital investment from the city. There won't be a park until the city can raise capital.

Yes if the Reese lawsuits were dropped and the Knights could get all their money lined up then construction on the stadium could start today.

[monsoon]

Yes if the Reese lawsuits were dropped and the Knights could get all their money lined up then construction on the stadium could start today.

The key word here is "could". The world "could" end tomorrow too. It was reported above, and seems to be a continuing story, that the Knights don't have the resources to even execute the current deal. They will most likely have to ask for even more taxpayer concessions before the project can move forward. If the county has walked away with the money however, I think the deal is dead.

[monsoon]

....I guess you could ask "Should the city allow the Knights to lease a vacant lot for free, or should it remain a vacant lot?" You could maybe put the land swap to a vote, but that's irrelevant when talking about the cost of building the stadium and who is paying for the stadium.

It's not irrelevant. The taxpayers paid for that land, and they will pay for the requested infrastructure upgrades. Furthermore it has also cost the taxpayers the intrinsic value of a large urban park at this location which all of you were praising before this deal came to light. All of you, without exception, said this large park would be invaluable to downtown Charlotte. So either you were completely wrong then, or you are being disingenuous now with these kinds of arguments.

One more time. If the Knights want to build a stadium on their own land they purchase, they can start that tomorrow. Nobody will bother them with lawsuits and the tieups involved with leeching funding from the government. If the downtown business interests are so gung ho on this project then convince BofA to give them a real attractive loan on the place. They don't do that because the owners are not willing to take the financial risk of doing so.

[HopHead]

Are there any lots in or around uptown that are of relatively same size (I think this is 8 acres) that could accomodate the stadium? This would be something that the city that doesn't need to spend $$ on to re-route any streets. I'd even throw in the idea of the Knights leasing it from Mecklenberg or the City for the same $1 that was proposed for this 3rd ward ballpark. This way we would be able to get away from 1) Jerry Reese and 2) the city having to spend money on infrastructure improvements for a stadium financed by the Knights.

Edited March 20, 2009 by dbull75

[uptownliving]

Well Jerry Reese is going to sue the city and county unless they choose to work with him and chose the site that HE wants the baseball stadium to go on.

Also I dont think there is an 8 acre site really anywhere in town that is not going to require some infrastructure upgrades...whether it be roads and sidewalks...or a parking deck.

[ChesterCopperPot]

They can purchase their own land, but it wont change the cost of building the stadium (for the most part). If that is really the problem, then they won't move. With the current plan, there is no land cost. If they build the stadium outside of Uptown, their gate revenue won't be as large (Uptown has more parking, public transportation options, is more dense, is more centrally located for the population than any other location in the city). If they build something in SC or stay at the same location in Fort Mill, Charlotte sees zero tax revenue from the Knights. It would be in Charlotte's best interest to offer some incentives for the team to move to the city of Charlotte simply for the tax revenue.

I think the leaders of Charlotte want this deal to happen and I think it is very popular with the residents of Charlotte. Here is my "yea" vote.

[monsoon]

Are there any lots in or around uptown that are of relatively same size (I think this is 8 acres) that could accomodate the stadium? ...

Yes, we have already talked about that above.

[HopHead]

Yes, we have already talked about that above.

Correct. However I was looking for a site that wouldn't need infrastructre improvements. I don't know how to articulate acerage on a google map, but that plot of land off Morehead and Clarkson near 277 seems to be smaller unless you remove roads or buildings.

[InitialD]

If the land swap does end up going through in spite of the lawsuits, and the Knights end up not being able to build now due to economic climate/rising construction costs, it would be unfortunate, but I'd love to see the block planned for the stadium added to the block planned for the 3rd ward park. That would make it two full blocks.