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Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward


dubone

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I counted 69 home games this year on the Knights' schedule. That's 69 times a year where thousands of people will be at the stadium spending money and walking through downtown when otherwise they wouldn't be there. Hopefully they will eat at restaurants in the area and stay after the game and go to the bars and other entertainment venues but if not, oh well. At least the local and state governent will receive taxes off of the ticket prices along with concessions and souvenir sales which will help in other areas and if they do go to places besides the stadium, it's bonus.

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I would go so far as to say that retail isn't really an "option" for this project. There are going to be thousands of condo and office units near the stadium, and for the condos especially the nearby retail is one of the biggest selling points. Currently the retail options in Third Ward are basically nil (Latta Arcade being the only significant destination), so building such a large facility with no retail would not just be a missed opportunity but a serious detriment to the neighborhood. I would hope that the invested parties in Third Ward would make it clear that the stadium's retail element will affect more than just streetlevel ambience; it'll affect the livability of any residential units built there for the forseeable future.

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I would go so far as to say that retail isn't really an "option" for this project. There are going to be thousands of condo and office units near the stadium, and for the condos especially the nearby retail is one of the biggest selling points. Currently the retail options in Third Ward are basically nil (Latta Arcade being the only significant destination), so building such a large facility with no retail would not just be a missed opportunity but a serious detriment to the neighborhood. I would hope that the invested parties in Third Ward would make it clear that the stadium's retail element will affect more than just streetlevel ambience; it'll affect the livability of any residential units built there for the forseeable future.

I agree, and by no means do I think if they leave out retail will it be good -- it would be a major bone-head move, but the developments coming all around the park, the stadium, and in the areas of 3rd Ward in general all have retail and commercial components. We need all we can get, but if the poeple who design this leave retail out of the stadium, it isn't going to be the only option for retail in 3rd Ward, just a small piece of the puzzle as a whole that was stupidly left out.

DESIGNERS, now is the chance to get this right~!!!!

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Question...how much do developers lose by incorporating retail spaces that potentially will not be leased for 2 or 3 years? The reason I ask is that there are many projects in Uptown that have retail components in the design, but have yet to announce plans for occupancy. You can make the argument that retail in this space is a bad business move given the current area. And here is a plug for Metro, Arenas do cause dead spaces when not in use, so anyone planning to open a business here would be doomed to fail in the short term.

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If this develops into a thoroughfare for pedestrians as many are predicting it will with it being connected to the park, this definitely won't be a dead space. I don't know if it can have heavy retail, but smaller shops and dining options would probably do well.

Edited by Raintree21
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Question...how much do developers lose by incorporating retail spaces that potentially will not be leased for 2 or 3 years?

It depends. Many retail or commercial components of larger projects are sold to investors, others are retained for long term holds. Every hybrid you can imagine in between exists. Most smaller projects, Silos, Park Plaza, 230 South Tryon, etc, sold their commercial slots as condos. Larger projects tend to hold for the long term. It is easier for say, Hearst Tower, to absorb a loss for a while than for a smaller project. It also depends on whether it is a build and go developer (Merrifield, Drakeford) who wants to finalize and move on or a developer who has a mixed portfolio (like a Crosland).

If this develops into a thoroughfare for pedestrians as many are predicting it will with it being connected to the park, this definitely won't be a dead space. I don't know if it can have heavy retail, but smaller shops and dining options would probably do well.

If this stadium is completed for the 2010 season it would be done, as would the retail spaces, at or about the same time as 300 S. Tryon and parts of Novare. Support (residents, office workers, etc) would be in place around the same time as completion, therefore it won't be as hard to lease and won't be as hard for those businesses to be busy.

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If this stadium is completed for the 2010 season it would be done, as would the retail spaces, at or about the same time as 300 S. Tryon and parts of Novare. Support (residents, office workers, etc) would be in place around the same time as completion, therefore it won't be as hard to lease and won't be as hard for those businesses to be busy.

Are they saying 2010 now? I thought the Knights were hoping for a 2009 opening.

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If this develops into a thoroughfare for pedestrians as many are predicting it will with it being connected to the park, this definitely won't be a dead space. I don't know if it can have heavy retail, but smaller shops and dining options would probably do well.

Neither is S. College a dead space, because it handles lots of pedestrian traffic from nearby businesses and attractions. But it is without a doubt a pedestrian-unfriendly atomosphere, mostly because of the intimidating blank walls that offer nothing to the passerby. While I doubt that the stadium would be designed that badly, I can see an uninspired site plan leading to an Epicentre/Charlotte Plaza relationship between the park and stadium. I would hate to think that, after all the effort that went into making the stadium a reality, it will be viewed 95% of the time as "the block you have to walk past to get to the park".

It's also worth noting that retail density has to start somewhere, and it's a lot easier to make it part of an arena plan than to hope and pray that condo developers do it spontaneously. If the stadium has no retail, it fails to establish a pedestrian crowd for the towers to feed on; this provides less justification for them to work retail into their plans, which affects the plans of future nearby developers, and so on into the unforseeable future. It's the same single-use, office-park mentality that prevailed in the 1980s and made uptown a sterile district in the first place. Someone needs to put their neck out and be the catalyst for intelligent growth; and I see no better time for that to happen than now, when the public has the (rare) leverage to directly influence site plans.

To be honest, I'm beginning to look at the stadium as an ominous sign of things to come. If this plan doesn't change substantially before dirt is turned, we might be very, very disappointed in a decade when the district as a whole fails to achieve its potential.

Edited by Justadude
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I'm sure there will be at least a Starbucks attached to it since there isn't one within 2 blocks of the stadium. Especially after Dunkin Donuts put their store at the Arena.

While we all have justified concerns and hopefully the architects will take not, I think we're jumping to conclusions a little soon. We haven't seen an official rendering yet that shows whether or not there will be retail. Remember that the rezoning plan is a rough guide of how the land will be used and is only 1 dimensional. How many buildings look exactly like the original site plan?

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Are they saying 2010 now? I thought the Knights were hoping for a 2009 opening.

That is why I put the *if*. I've heard both years, and a lot depends on getting started full swing now as opposed to a few months from now. Right now they have the rezoning plan in process and that makes for an indefinite as to when this actually gets started to the point of real construction, not just minor site work. Either way is good for me, actually, just glad to see this moving along. Perhaps some extra time to work out the rezoning and other associated planning elements will make those involved consider these hopes and requests for certain things like retail along the streets!

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  • 3 weeks later...

The Charlotte Knights have submited a revised site plan from the earlier one noted on this forum. Here is the link: http://ww.charmeck.org/Planning/Rezoning/2...n%20revised.pdf Once again the site plan we all want to look at is on page 3. They made some important changes. First off, the parking is gone from MLK and now there is a detailed explanation of MLK, with on-street parking on both sides. Also, the Knights have labeled where their team store, ticket booth, and restaurant will go. Finally, they got rid of the plaza out along Fourth and put Future Building Envelope, which it were up to me would be condos facing the field like a Wrigley Park or Petco Park situation. I attended the last Knights game yesterday and on the concourse they had a table with renderings and the siteplan on boards. Nothing new but they had quite a few people asking questions and filling out feedback forms. Good to see they are being proactive, next year they will start the big effort of getting season ticket holders and sponsors for the new ballpark.

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For the most part, I like the site plan.

I've actaully changed my tune. Thought I'm not a big proponent of the ballpark there, I do think that if Charlotte ever gets a major league team, they should find a way to expand this park. They actually spent some effort making it fit into an urban street grid, and it makes it somewhat unique. Fenway Park is special to Boston because of the way it fits into the streetscape, and isn't some generic dome on a large parcel of land.

I realize how difficult it would be to go from 10k to 40k seats, but they should at least have some conceptual idea of how upper decks could be added so that it is in theory at least possible to add them in the future.

As far at the future building envelope, I'd like to see a hotel, with exterior balconies facing the park. The Knights could receive revenue from the hotel for rooms facing the field on game days.

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The Charlotte Knights have submited a revised site plan from the earlier one noted on this forum. Here is the link: http://ww.charmeck.org/Planning/Rezoning/2...n%20revised.pdf Once again the site plan we all want to look at is on page 3. They made some important changes. First off, the parking is gone from MLK and now there is a detailed explanation of MLK, with on-street parking on both sides. Also, the Knights have labeled where their team store, ticket booth, and restaurant will go. Finally, they got rid of the plaza out along Fourth and put Future Building Envelope, which it were up to me would be condos facing the field like a Wrigley Park or Petco Park situation. I attended the last Knights game yesterday and on the concourse they had a table with renderings and the siteplan on boards. Nothing new but they had quite a few people asking questions and filling out feedback forms. Good to see they are being proactive, next year they will start the big effort of getting season ticket holders and sponsors for the new ballpark.

I actually like this site plan. I'm glad to see that they are incorporating a restaurant in the plan as well. Wonder what that may be? I think something like a Buffalo Wild Wings would be a great fit. As far as that development "envelope" goes, I think putting a hotel or mid-rise condos/office buildings would be a logical fit. Or maybe that's left open for expanding the stadium if down the road we land a MLB team :)

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I'm not a fan of the site plan at all. If the space is too small, it's too small. Seems like we're losing park land to end up with a less than adequete baseball stadium, not a great trade off. I'd love the ballpark to be uptown, but it should be a showplace...not a thing they've settled for.

I do agree, It should be about having a spectaular facility that reflect Charlott'e big time thinking and not just settling for anything just because its uptown. This stadium should be THE BEST minor league ballpark in the country. $30 million seems kind of low for a AAA stadium, considering most new AA ready ballparks like in downtown Greensboro were around $25 million. And I think the planned downtown ballpark in Winston-Salem is $27 million and thats a 5,000 seat Single A stadium

Edited by cityboi
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Well they're getting the land and infrastructure for free, so the $30 million goes entirely towards the cost of the building. I'm not sure if thats the case for the others you mentioned.

I do agree, It should be about having a spectaular facility that reflect Charlott'e big time thinking and not just settling for anything just because its uptown. This stadium should be THE BEST minor league ballpark in the country. $30 million seems kind of low for a AAA stadium, considering most new AA ready ballparks like in downtown Greensboro were around $25 million. And I think the planned downtown ballpark in Winston-Salem is $27 million and thats a 5,000 seat Single A stadium
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I actually like this site plan. I'm glad to see that they are incorporating a restaurant in the plan as well. Wonder what that may be? I think something like a Buffalo Wild Wings would be a great fit. As far as that development "envelope" goes, I think putting a hotel or mid-rise condos/office buildings would be a logical fit. Or maybe that's left open for expanding the stadium if down the road we land a MLB team :)

As long as it's not elitist and overly expensive like the restaurant at the Bobcat's arena I'll be happy. A nice, fairly inexpensive sports bar that can be open on days that aren't game days would be great.

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Well they're getting the land and infrastructure for free, so the $30 million goes entirely towards the cost of the building. I'm not sure if thats the case for the others you mentioned.

In the case of Greensboro it was a county land swap too. Greensboro's stadium was around $25 million.

A number of AAA ballparks across the country are costing around $45 million which is why I thought $30 million was kinda low. If the county land is worth about $15 million than that would average about right.

Edited by cityboi
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