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Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward


dubone

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Here in Seattle, the Mariners are drawing roughly 15k average attendance so far this year. Granted that the Mariners are awful, but Seattle is larger and has a long MLB history. If Charlotte's MLB team was having a poor year, you could see average attendance below 15k. Seattle also has the Sounders MLS team, which is a huge success. I would much prefer MLS in Charlotte over MLB. The games are much more exciting, and the fact that there are about 1/5 fewer games means that each game is more important. Shoot for MLS Charlotte!

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^Very valid points. A lot of teams in MLB are struggling as it is now. The Cleveland Indians who have been a punchline for much of the past decade have the league's best record this season, yet are dead last in attendance. The Washington Nationals who just built a beautiful $600 million venue a few years back, play before a mostly empty stadium or lots of Phillies fans. Like a lot of kids in my generation that grew up in the 80s, baseball was the sport that everyone played and followed. However, IMO it definitely doesn't have the same appeal that it used to. I think a combination of that and high ticket prices for 81 games doesn't help with attendance. I'm not really a soccer fan, but MLS right now has the most upside because it's relatively new and lots of people are seeing the excitement that's been on display in Portland and Seattle with their new teams. Plus it's a substantially cheaper sport to run and support. I thought I remember Reese had the idea of buying the Knights Fort Mill home and converting it into an MLS stadium along with a mixed-used development. Personally, I'd rather see the stadium closer to uptown as we all know Fort Mill has its drawbacks.

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Reese is a nut job if he thinks MLS would be successful in Fort Mill (hell, we already know he's a nut job). My thoughts for an MLS stadium in Charlotte would be to take over Memorial Stadium and reconstruct it to a degree, widen the field, and add significant upgrades. Memorial could still be used for big high school football games, but it's the perfect size for an MLS soccer specific stadium. We could shoot for roughly a 25,000 seat stadium, and it would be perfect! Realistically, I think Charlotte could consistently draw ~20,000 or so on average, slightly above the MLS average of ~15,000. MLS stadiums in urban centers have been much more successful than those located in the burbs, so Reese is nuts if he thinks it will work in Fort Mill.

Back to the subject of the Knights, though, I think the best location for their stadium would be the SW corner of uptown behind BofA Stadium, on the lot where Beazer was planning that townhome development. That would give it enough room to expand for MLB if a team came to town and it also would reduce the breakup in the urban fabric that would occur with a stadium close to Trade and Tryon.

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Moving the Knights to a new stadium downtown is a no-brainer. Building a stadium for a potential MLB team would be an absolutely horrible investment.

Regarding soccer, I would think we would need to legitimize our current minor league team, The Eagles and then build support for an MLS expansion team. I think the Eagles could move to Memorial Stadium as is. They should drop their Christian family oriented shtick, start selling beers at games, and import a few Latinos to draw the immigrant population.

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Back to the subject of the Knights, though, I think the best location for their stadium would be the SW corner of uptown behind BofA Stadium, on the lot where Beazer was planning that townhome development. That would give it enough room to expand for MLB if a team came to town and it also would reduce the breakup in the urban fabric that would occur with a stadium close to Trade and Tryon.

I totally agree. It would be the ideal location in my book too. The proposed location now could be better suited for infill development. Though, I thought I heard within the last year that the Panthers were looking at buying that property or another plot of land near by for future development? In an ideal world, the Knights could build their stadium in the old Beazer section and have some kind of shared parking for the Knights and Panthers - minimal parking that is :)

Edited by dbull75
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I'd rather see Eastland Mall area turned into a sports complex with an AAA ballbark that had ability to expand to MLB, a MLS stadium that could double for High-school football games and tournaments and the surrounding area filled with neighborhood park/practice fields.

But that''s just my lala dream....

Back on topic of Knights in Third - I really don't mind the minor league stadium , and in fact like the idea of a minor league stadium inside the beltway if it is done correctly. I appreciate that Charlotte is really focusing on density in the urban core, but the occasional breakup with something like a park and minor league stadium gives the inner core some breathing ability and visual interest for the pedestrian.

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Reese is a nut job if he thinks MLS would be successful in Fort Mill (hell, we already know he's a nut job). My thoughts for an MLS stadium in Charlotte would be to take over Memorial Stadium and reconstruct it to a degree, widen the field, and add significant upgrades. Memorial could still be used for big high school football games, but it's the perfect size for an MLS soccer specific stadium. We could shoot for roughly a 25,000 seat stadium, and it would be perfect! Realistically, I think Charlotte could consistently draw ~20,000 or so on average, slightly above the MLS average of ~15,000. MLS stadiums in urban centers have been much more successful than those located in the burbs, so Reese is nuts if he thinks it will work in Fort Mill.

Amen! A refurbished Memorial Stadium would be terrific for MLS -- the view of uptown Charlotte would be incredible. My vision would be for the new Major League Lacrosse team and a MLS team to partner together to renovate Memorial Stadium.

As another poster stated, the Charlotte Eagles need to drop the Christian schtick. I'm not anti-Christian and the Eagles have done a terrific job over the years, but they are not a real reflection of the potential for pro soccer in Charlotte.

GO SOUNDERS!!!

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so I was looking at this map today...and was watching the Nationals play last night and thinking how nice it would be to go to a MLB game right here in Charlotte. We have been hearing for 20 years that Charlotte is at least 10 years from being able to support a team. That argument is played out. The carolinas together house about 15 million people. Thats alot of potential fan base.

I think that this new Knights stadium should only be built if it can one day be expanded. it just makes sense. It almost seems un-Charlotte to do it any other way.

post-1053-0-65861200-1306426099_thumb.jp

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^I love having this conversation! We get to have it every couple of months and I always love to think about it.

Let's just say that MLB decided to expand teams. They have to pick two cities (so there is an even number of teams). The league that would be expanded would be the American League (because the National League already has 16 teams, and the AL has 14). So lets assume that MLB picks two ripe markets to play in the AL; let's say they are Charlotte and Portland, OR. What we would end up with is a 6th team to fight off the big-market teams of the Red Sox and Yankees.

I'm not saying a MLB team in Charlotte is doomed to fail (but it's the toughest league in the game to compete year after year). Tampa Bay has pulled themselves out of the "joke" category in the last few years though. And the Florida Marlins won the World Series twice as a new team.

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  • 3 weeks later...

There is now a Facebook page encouraging County Commission to approve an extension for the Knights on the Third Ward property. Their current lease requires them to be substantially under construction by this fall. The County Commission Economic Development committee votes on their recommendation tomorrow night. People are encouraged to "Like" the page as a sort of online petition.

http://www.facebook.com/DorightbytheKnights

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Though it would be nice to have baseball Uptown, I worry that too many sports in the Third Ward corner of Uptown will be as lifeless as too many government buildings has been in Second Ward. Thus, I'm somewhat apathetic about whether the deal finally comes together now or ultimately falls apart.

Granted, I do like the idea of shared parking. But would MLB conflict more with an NFL schedule than AAA? In other words, are AAA teams' schedules more flexible to avoid NFL game days than MLB teams?

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Granted, I do like the idea of shared parking. But would MLB conflict more with an NFL schedule than AAA? In other words, are AAA teams' schedules more flexible to avoid NFL game days than MLB teams?

Interesting question - my guess would be MLB is less flexible simply because all MLB games have TV broadcast - AAA baseball is never (99% of the time) broadcast on TV. And if we ended up with a winning team, ESPN, Fox, TBS all have "games of the week" that dictate specific starts (Sat day games, Sunday 8pm games, etc.).

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Granted, I do like the idea of shared parking. But would MLB conflict more with an NFL schedule than AAA? In other words, are AAA teams' schedules more flexible to avoid NFL game days than MLB teams?

The AAA baseball season ends on Labor Day, while the MLB season ends in early October. The NFL doesn't start until the weekend after Labor Day.

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Here are the bullet points from the County Commish's meeting with The Knights:

•Provide proof of commitments from two founding-level sponsors by March 31, 2012. If the franchise misses the deadline, it would be obligated to put another $100,000 into a county escrow fund.

•Submit a financing plan for building the stadium by June 30, 2012.

•Start construction on the project no later than Oct. 1, 2012.

•Agree not to seek any county funds to help pay for the stadium.

•Deposit $100,000 into an escrow account by August to help defray county legal fees incurred during a series of lawsuits the team and county faced in opposition to the new stadium. County Attorney Marvin Bethune estimated the cost at $400,000. The $100,000 from the Knights would be returned by the county two weeks after a new ballpark opens in 2014.

Later in the article, I picked up the allusion that The Knights are dismayed by these terms in light of their current terms

“We had an agreement, an understanding with county staff, which is what I understood coming in here, so we’re going to have to go back and take a look at this,” said Dan Rajkowski, Knights general manager. “We’re going to take a look at this and see if it’s something we can live with. Still, we’re committed to getting this thing done.”

Rajkowski told the four-member committee several times that the Knights prefer a Sepetember 2012 deadline for securing the loans and starting construction.

but I'm not quite sure why. Is it the difference of a couple months in securing the financial agreement? What am I missing?

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I also believe Knight's stadium should only be built if it can one day be home to a MLB team. I just believe that the Carolinas would support a Major League team with enthusiasm much like they did with the Hornets.

I agree. Charlotte likes nothing more then something shiny and new and like we stepped up to the plate when the Hornets arrived we would do the same for MLB. if it wasn't for that Shinn character we'd still be packing the house for the Hornets.

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From the same article:

"Reese told commissioners he has had talks with the owners of an existing MLB franchise about Charlotte, but he said he could not disclose names or go further until the Knights’ proposal is quashed."

Reminds me of a joke...how can you tell when a lawyer is lying? His lips are moving.

Read more: Charlotte Knights take step toward lease extension for uptown site {sodEmoji.|} Charlotte Business Journal

Here are the bullet points from the County Commish's meeting with The Knights:

•Provide proof of commitments from two founding-level sponsors by March 31, 2012. If the franchise misses the deadline, it would be obligated to put another $100,000 into a county escrow fund.

•Submit a financing plan for building the stadium by June 30, 2012.

•Start construction on the project no later than Oct. 1, 2012.

•Agree not to seek any county funds to help pay for the stadium.

•Deposit $100,000 into an escrow account by August to help defray county legal fees incurred during a series of lawsuits the team and county faced in opposition to the new stadium. County Attorney Marvin Bethune estimated the cost at $400,000. The $100,000 from the Knights would be returned by the county two weeks after a new ballpark opens in 2014.

Later in the article, I picked up the allusion that The Knights are dismayed by these terms in light of their current terms

but I'm not quite sure why. Is it the difference of a couple months in securing the financial agreement? What am I missing?

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Hopefully, one way or the other, this whole uptown stadium thing is resolved next year. If they are going to build, lets get it built. If not, free up the land and let someone else come in, buy the property and develop it. It's one of the most valuable Panther tailgating spots around.

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What I don't understand is people's insistence that Charlotte could not support an MLB team.

The Bobcats draw 15000-16000 per game, and that is during Winter Sports season when people are also going to football and hockey games.

The time has come for the city of Charlotte to "step up to the plate" and begin to look at how it can attract an MLB team. In fact, a report last year listed the city as number 2 on a top ten list of cities that need the MLB.

Can you link to that report?

I used to be sternly in the camp of MLB not being able to work in Charlotte, but I've changed my opinion. I am of the opinion that due to the popularity of baseball in the Carolinas, it would probably do better than people think. We have more NCAA-D1 teams Our collegiate talent is routinely at the top of NCAA-DI baseball. USC, Clemson, UNC, NC State, Coastal Carolina, College of Charleston, and ECU regularly field great teams. USC and UNC are in the CWS this year, USC won it all last year, most of these teams make the play-offs every few years... plus USC and Clemson regularly rank in the top 10 in average attendance. Obviously the correlation is slightly off because MLB costs more money, tickets are more expenseive, etc. However I think that if the stadium is located in a urban setting, and NOT in Ft. Mill, then it could do fairly well.

I would point out, though, that the Bobcats have NEVER averaged 16,000 per game. That would be near capacity every time. They might average 5,000 a game. I also think that any comparison to the Bobcats is not really useful in the context of this thread because of the city's history with the Hornets.

Yea, but one thing you guys really need to think about and that hasn't been mentioned is something called Total Personal Income (TPI). Out of the four major sports (NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL), baseball has the highest TPI required for a metro area to support a team. Baseball is actually double what's needed for basketball, football or hockey. I'd have to dig up some references but MLB is something to the tune of $80+ billion. The other sports are under $40 billion.

Very interesting information. I did some research, and I found a handy info-graphic that uses TPI to determine which cities in the United States could support various sports franchises (each sport has its own map):

http://www.portfolio.com/interactive-features/2009/12/stadium-seating

Here are links to more specific information:

http://www.portfolio.com/industry-news/sports/2009/12/07/scenarios-for-expansion-in-professional-sports-leagues/

Personally, I'd rather see the stadium closer to uptown as we all know Fort Mill has its drawbacks.

I'd rather see MLS played at Memorial Stadium. I know we've had a discussion about it before, and there is something wrong with the pitch of that stadium... but I still maintain that it is better than a high school somewhere in south Charlotte.

^I love having this conversation! We get to have it every couple of months and I always love to think about it.

Let's just say that MLB decided to expand teams. They have to pick two cities (so there is an even number of teams). The league that would be expanded would be the American League (because the National League already has 16 teams, and the AL has 14). So lets assume that MLB picks two ripe markets to play in the AL; let's say they are Charlotte and Portland, OR. What we would end up with is a 6th team to fight off the big-market teams of the Red Sox and Yankees.

I'm not saying a MLB team in Charlotte is doomed to fail (but it's the toughest league in the game to compete year after year). Tampa Bay has pulled themselves out of the "joke" category in the last few years though. And the Florida Marlins won the World Series twice as a new team.

MLB is looking at expansion in the next few years. It could also lead to expansion, which is good for our case. None of the MLB teams are looking to move right now. The Devil Rays just got approval for a new stadium, as did the Marlins, and they were the most likely teams to move. I think a major factor about going to see baseball is the location. An urban location is more convenient and fun (see Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox)

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6653808

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I would really prefer that the stadium is not built on that site.I would really prefer another site like South End. There are plenty of vacant spots there these days.....

Like where exactly? Silos is the only land I can think of that MIGHT be large enough, but I'm not sure that it is...

I do however love the idea of catching a game in Southend, Lets start a grassroots campaign

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All along the blue line I see swaths of vacant land. The land is just foundations where buildings used to be or were going to be and I see skate boarders on them all the time. Whether or not the land is big enough for a stadium I dont know, but its a nice thought at least.

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I would point out, though, that the Bobcats have NEVER averaged 16,000 per game. That would be near capacity every time. They might average 5,000 a game. I also think that any comparison to the Bobcats is not really useful in the context of this thread because of the city's history with the Hornets.

I would point out that if there were 5,000 people in the arena that would mean it's 3/4 empty. As a season ticket holder that goes to almost every game, I will tell you it's not true. Yea, it's not the Hornets of the early 90's with 23,000 people there but the attendance isn't that bad. Game attendance is based on tickets sold, so cltwimob is correct in that the Bobcats do average nearly 16,000. Check the stats for yourself: http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance. The number of people that show up varies. For every Lakers or Heat game that's over capacity there's the Monday night games against Minnesota or Memphis that draws a lot less. Winning solves a lot of those problems. If they can revamp the team like they are planning to do, it will improve.

MLB is looking at expansion in the next few years. It could also lead to expansion, which is good for our case. None of the MLB teams are looking to move right now. The Devil Rays just got approval for a new stadium, as did the Marlins, and they were the most likely teams to move. I think a major factor about going to see baseball is the location. An urban location is more convenient and fun (see Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox)

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6653808

That video was rather misleading. They only talked about re-alignment of the divisions and moving the Astros to the American League. There was no mention of expansion other than it last happened in 1998. I'm not sure why MLB would consider expansion at this point anyways. They have several teams that are in bad financial shape. The Dodgers, who are in the #2 TV market, can't even make payroll though a lot of it is tied to a divorce settlement. The Mets are mess with the Wilpons. The Rays (not Devil Rays :) ) haven't received any approvals for a new stadium. Both Tampa and St. Pete are in a tug of war over that situation, but it's definitely not resolved. The only thing that's happened is that different groups have come up with proposals. The Knights are much closer to getting a new home than the Rays are. I'd still say they are a candidate for relocation if they can't get that resolved in the next few years.

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