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Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward


dubone

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That video was rather misleading. They only talked about re-alignment of the divisions and moving the Astros to the American League. There was no mention of expansion other than it last happened in 1998. I'm not sure why MLB would consider expansion at this point anyways. They have several teams that are in bad financial shape. The Dodgers, who are in the #2 TV market, can't even make payroll though a lot of it is tied to a divorce settlement. The Mets are mess with the Wilpons. The Rays (not Devil Rays :) ) haven't received any approvals for a new stadium. Both Tampa and St. Pete are in a tug of war over that situation, but it's definitely not resolved. The only thing that's happened is that different groups have come up with proposals. The Knights are much closer to getting a new home than the Rays are. I'd still say they are a candidate for relocation if they can't get that resolved in the next few years.

Yeah I agree about The Rays - and actually, I could see The Rays getting fed up with Tampa Bay Area very soon. They went to the World Series and didn't get any substantial bump in fan support. That, on top of the fact that St. Pete/Tampa can't seem to get their act together on a decent stadium (which could explain the fan apathy), plus the fact that Florida in general is not a great place for pro-sports (see Miami Heat who should have sold out every single home game this year, but did not by a long shot), could prove to end The Rays in Florida. Your right that The Knights are closer than The Rays to a new stadium, and it all has to do with the fact that Charlotte is a booster-paradise, and Florida does things like gives back $3B in High Speed Rail money to prove a point.

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Very interesting information. I did some research, and I found a handy info-graphic that uses TPI to determine which cities in the United States could support various sports franchises (each sport has its own map):

http://www.portfolio.com/interactive-features/2009/12/stadium-seating

That's such a weird graphic. It assumes that places like Richmond are ripe, but discounts the fact that most people in RVA have looked to the DC teams as their own forever. It also assumes that Richmond and Hampton Roads would be a unified fan-base (if you think there is a power struggle between Charlotte and Raleigh, you'd should see RVA/Hampton Roads!). Richmond couldn't even support it's MLB-AAA or EHL teams.

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All along the blue line I see swaths of vacant land. The land is just foundations where buildings used to be or were going to be and I see skate boarders on them all the time. Whether or not the land is big enough for a stadium I dont know, but its a nice thought at least.

A lot of that vacant land along the LYNX line is being shopped by the apartment industry, especially north of New Bern. Plus, the super-block where the stadium is slated measures roughly 500 feet by 750 feet. A lot of the vacant lots in South End aren't quite big enough.

Though I dislike Jerry Reese's sue-happy tactics, Marshall Park is a more appealing site, in my opinion, since it wouldn't require the removal of any streets. The Second Ward site could still even work with the addition of a street (Alexander?). Meanwhile, the site in Third Ward requires the loss of Third Street between Mint and Graham.

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Check the stats for yourself: http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance. The number of people that show up varies. For every Lakers or Heat game that's over capacity there's the Monday night games against Minnesota or Memphis that draws a lot less. Winning solves a lot of those problems. If they can revamp the team like they are planning to do, it will improve.

The Rays (not Devil Rays :) ) haven't received any approvals for a new stadium. Both Tampa and St. Pete are in a tug of war over that situation, but it's definitely not resolved. The only thing that's happened is that different groups have come up with proposals. The Knights are much closer to getting a new home than the Rays are. I'd still say they are a candidate for relocation if they can't get that resolved in the next few years.

Well, I stand corrected. I went to a few games least season and there was almost nobody there, though it was before Silas came on board. I still find it hard to believe that the arena was near capacity (it only holds 19,000) for almost every game last year. But good for them. Improving attendance over that level shouldn't be too hard if they keep winning.

As for MLB, expansion is one route they could take to even out the divisions across both leagues, though I agree that it is a very unlikely option. I also prefer the name Devil Rays. It just sounds cooler, so I'm refusing to change :)

A lot of that vacant land along the LYNX line is being shopped by the apartment industry, especially north of New Bern. Plus, the super-block where the stadium is slated measures roughly 500 feet by 750 feet. A lot of the vacant lots in South End aren't quite big enough.

With a slight modification to Carson Blvd, the "superblock" bounded by Tryon, Carson, Church, and Morehead might be large enough. A South End location like that would be appealing.

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I used to be sternly in the camp of MLB not being able to work in Charlotte, but I've changed my opinion. I am of the opinion that due to the popularity of baseball in the Carolinas, it would probably do better than people think.

Yes...In my opinion, we have the population plus the projected growth to support MLB, we have the corporate base to support it, and we have four other metro areas that share borders with the Charlotte Region that could help support it. Jerry Reese often gets maligned to no end in local media circles as well as blogs, forums, etc., however he has a point about MLB. We have a city that is home to the largest bank in America, one of the largest utilities in America, plus a host of other Fortune 500 and Fortune 1000 companies. We have a city that will host the DNC and as a result be the host for the most powerful person in the world. We have a city which is home to one of the top 25 airports in the world. We have a city that considers itself major when it comes to everything else,but when it comes to baseball, we consider ourselves too minor to play with the big cities. In other words we bunt when we should be going for the home run.

Forgive the pun but it seemed appropriate

Edited by cltbwimob
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With a slight modification to Carson Blvd, the "superblock" bounded by Tryon, Carson, Church, and Morehead might be large enough. A South End location like that would be appealing.

Granted, the loss of Winnifred in this South End super-block is likely not as bad as losing Third Street in Third Ward. But since an owner of half that super-block is listed as "Morehead Apartments LLC," I think it's a safe bet on what the investor sees as the site's future land use. And hopefully, the parking deck and its driveways can be placed more on alley-like Winnifred, wrapping the other street frontages with more active uses.

Just seems totally mismatched to rip out a street in Third Ward for the Knights Ballpark, when streets will have to be added in Second Ward for Brooklyn Village. Considering infrastructure costs, in terms of both upfront construction and ongoing maintenance, you think the inherent savings would be more attractive to both public sector and private developers by actually locating development projects where the block structure largely already works for one's concept.

Edited by southslider
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I havent done very much research on what Im about to say but as discussed a few post back the LA Dodgers are in a big mess. Divorce, payroll problems. Would love to see MLB pick this team up and start fresh in Charlotte. The city can build a shiny new stadium thousands of miles from the troubles in LA and make a new start in Charlotte. Wishful thinking, but stranger things have happened!

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Regarding the conversation of MLB vs Minor league baseball - I personally would hate a MLB stadium in the 277 loop. I love the idea of a minor league park though for two major reasons:

  • The first is that it would greatly aid Charlotte in landing a lot more than greater attendance figures for the Knights. From NCAA baseball tournaments to downtown concerts and festivals - I think a minor league stadium would offer Charlotte's convention/tourism business a nice plus in selling Charlotte
  • The second has to do with breathing room and feel of the city. There is something desirable about the small town feel of a minor league ballpark in the heart of a growing city that is being missed here. As Charlotte grows - and grow it will - the sort of reminder of small town roots is not really a bad thing in my opinion. It sort of balances with the ridiculous million several hundred thousand dollar condo ambitions of the city.

Final thought on the above? I would prefer the earlier discussed plan of the plot by the HoF or one in Southend to be frank, but any movement in that direction I think would push baseball inside the city back an additional 5-10 years past the current 2013-2014 aim.

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I would love an MLB stadium in the southwestern portion of Uptown near BofA stadium. I would like to seet a 35K-40K seat open-air stadium with some of the cool features of other stadiums incorporated into the design. Some things I think would be cool are large fountains like Kauffman stadium in KC and lights in team colors around the upper deck like the old Busch Stadium in STL.

On a side note, the Durham Bulls are the AAA affiliate of the TB Rays. If the Rays were to relocate to Charlotte, it could have the same synergistic effects for both teams as moving the ex River Rats to Charlotte had for the Checkers and the Hurricanes. Also the team could be called the Carolina Rays rather than the Charlotte Rays and could become both North and South Carolina's team the way the Carolina Panthers have become the team of both states.

Edited by cltbwimob
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Like: Carolina [sunshine] Rays? That works... maybe a sponsorship by Duke Energy Solar... And sunshine and rainbow team colors? J/K. I like the idea a lot... can you make it happen?

If I could make MLB happen in Charlotte, it would have happened a long time ago. It doesn't have to be the Carolina Rays though, it could be any team just as long as they called themselves the Carolina (team moniker) and moved to Charlotte since Charlotte is near the geographical center for both states, is the largest city and metro area in both states, and is the economic capital of both states.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Don't want to stir up the debate about whether or not Charlotte can take on a 3rd major league franchise with MLB, but there's an interview with Hugh McColl in the Charlotte Biz Journals this week that cover this topic (among other things). I think most would agree that Hugh is about the most respected business mind in Charlotte so I usually listen when he speaks. He had this to say regarding baseball in Charlotte when asked about the uptown stadium:

On baseball uptown:

I think that Jerry Reese is hurting us (by fighting efforts to bring minor-league baseball uptown). We could not support a Major League Baseball team. There’s not enough corporate dollars. There’s not enough corporate dollars to support three major-league teams. Think of the amount of money it takes for Major League Baseball.

Remember the guy that owned the Florida Marlins, who won the World Series and lost $50 million? (Wayne Huizenga.) He said “I can’t stand any more of this success.” And he sold it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here's the picture from the Do Right by Knights FB page:

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/184008_132413006849335_110417169048919_208742_4053657_n.jpg

Also, there's another rendering of the ballpark in uptown which looks pretty cool as the skyline is more up to date than the image from ~2005

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/282535_123084301115539_110417169048919_173726_3798267_n.jpg

EDIT: Added URLs to the images. UP didn't seem to like the image links I tried.

Edited by dbull75
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I know it has been extensively vetted in the past, but the idea of an expandable stadium still strikes me as prudent. I know that it costs a lot more upfront, but if the bones of the stadium are good, an upgrade to MLB down the road would be so much easier with an improvable stadium in place. Just my 2 cents. I believe its inevitable that we get MLB in Charlotte, it just may be 10-30 years down the road. Even with Raleigh growing at a fast pace, they are situated too far east and not central enough to the core population of the 2 states to be in the running down the road. Not being a big baseball fan, I'm content with cheap AAA entertainment anyway but just like to look at the big picture.

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I know it has been extensively vetted in the past, but the idea of an expandable stadium still strikes me as prudent. I know that it costs a lot more upfront, but if the bones of the stadium are good, an upgrade to MLB down the road would be so much easier with an improvable stadium in place. Just my 2 cents. I believe its inevitable that we get MLB in Charlotte, it just may be 10-30 years down the road. Even with Raleigh growing at a fast pace, they are situated too far east and not central enough to the core population of the 2 states to be in the running down the road. Not being a big baseball fan, I'm content with cheap AAA entertainment anyway but just like to look at the big picture.

The dimensions on the playing field don't change...only the seating arrangement (and facilities I assume)... It's not unusual to overbuild foundations and load-bearing structures to be retrofit... come on all you smart architects, bid!

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The dimensions on the playing field don't change...only the seating arrangement (and facilities I assume)... It's not unusual to overbuild foundations and load-bearing structures to be retrofit... come on all you smart architects, bid!

Since the Charlotte Knights and more specificlly Don Beaver are planning to fund the stadium, and it not coming from public money, I would think that he (they) would have the say on it. Chances of Don Beaver being in a position to buy, and move a major league team here are probably remote. An if'n he did build a stadium that could expand, certainly increasing the cost of the project significantly, what guarentee would he have that some future unnamed MLB team would want a re-fitted stadium?

You may remember that Tropicana Field in Tampa was built without a team to support it. The Chicago White Sox were rumored at the time to be considering a move. That turned into a ploy to have Illinois construct them a new stadium on the south side, the last stadium built before the "Camden Yards" model. Tampa is trying desparately to rid itself of the Trop!

Edited by DMann
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Since the Charlotte Knights and more specificlly Don Beaver are planning to fund the stadium, and it not coming from public money, I would think that he (they) would have the say on it. Chances of Don Beaver being in a position to buy, and move a major league team here are probably remote. An if'n he did build a stadium that could expand, certainly increasing the cost of the project significantly, what guarentee would he have that some future unnamed MLB team would want a re-fitted stadium?

You may remember that Tropicana Field in Tampa was built without a team to support it. The Chicago White Sox were rumored at the time to be considering a move. That turned into a ploy to have Illinois construct them a new stadium on the south side, the last stadium built before the "Camden Yards" model. Tampa is trying desparately to rid itself of the Trop!

Duly noted...very true.

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uhm - That "second place" is tied with Portland, New Orleans and Nashville.

I love baseball as much as the next person, but I don't think Charlotte needs nor wants another Major League stadium inside the 277. A minor league to me is fine as it adds a balance of entertainment options but if (and probably when) MLB eventually comes to Charlotte - let's hope it is not in the heart of the area we need to build up with residential, retail, and business density.

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