Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[#1Son]

MLB is drooling to put a franchise in  the Carolinas largest city.  MLB is a regional sport and NC and SC have almost 15 million as a region.  Plus the Carolinas have a huge number of fans for other teams Yankees, Cubs, Braves, etc.  Weekend attendance will not be an issue as fans throughout the Carolinas will come to watch a game or two over the weekend and make coming to Charlotte mini vacation.  Which fans currently do for NFL, NBA and NHL games.  Weekday attendance is the question. As stated before the City lacked the foresight to build the Knights ballpark with the ability to be expanded.  Until a stadium is built or a plan to build one is developed MLB is  sadly a dream. 

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, #1Son said:

MLB is drooling to put a franchise in  the Carolinas largest city.  MLB is a regional sport and NC and SC have almost 15 million as a region.  Plus the Carolinas have a huge number of fans for other teams Yankees, Cubs, Braves, etc.  Weekend attendance will not be an issue as fans throughout the Carolinas will come to watch a game or two over the weekend and make coming to Charlotte mini vacation.  Which fans currently do for NFL, NBA and NHL games.  Weekday attendance is the question. As stated before the City lacked the foresight to build the Knights ballpark with the ability to be expanded.  Until a stadium is built or a plan to build one is developed MLB is  sadly a dream. 

Wasn't that what the lawsuit that delayed it was all about?  MANY, including folks here, were against that idea. (to design it with the ability to expand)

[a2theb]

17 hours ago, #1Son said:

 Weekday attendance is the question

ding ding ding. This is the biggest question mark. Don't think Thursday/Friday/Saturday/Sunday (afternoon) attendance is an issue due to the social aspect. Its the late summer Monday - Wednesday games that drag on until 10-10:30pm that are the concern and you still need to be able to have decent attendance to make this a reasonable investment.

 

I don't think they have a problem doing decent attendance for a mid afternoon weekday game (who doesn't want to play hooky from work and spend a nice spring afternoon watching baseball) but those are few and far between.

[tozmervo]

Just to make sure there's not a misunderstanding about stadium expansion:

The reason the Knights stadium was approved without that ability isn't the stadium itself, it's the adjacent roads. There is physically not enough land available without growing outside of the block. If the ability to expand was the tail wagging the dog, the stadium would have needed to be built outside of uptown or break the uptown street grid (ala spectrum center). 

Either way, we would have had a stadium that could have expanded, but without the incredible spectator and urban experience the current stadium provides. I would much prefer an awesome baseball experience in a full minor league stadium than a phoned-in experience waiting on the pipe dream of an MLB franchise. (IMO minor league games are a lot more fun to go to, but I digress.)

[InSouthPark]

17 hours ago, #1Son said:

MLB is drooling to put a franchise in  the Carolinas largest city.  MLB is a regional sport and NC and SC have almost 15 million as a region.  Plus the Carolinas have a huge number of fans for other teams Yankees, Cubs, Braves, etc.  Weekend attendance will not be an issue as fans throughout the Carolinas will come to watch a game or two over the weekend and make coming to Charlotte mini vacation.  Which fans currently do for NFL, NBA and NHL games.  Weekday attendance is the question. As stated before the City lacked the foresight to build the Knights ballpark with the ability to be expanded.  Until a stadium is built or a plan to build one is developed MLB is  sadly a dream. 

The city didn't build the stadium.  The Knights did.  City facilitated a big land swap and some infrastructure money.  Jerry Reece sued to stop the stadium because he wanted to build his own MLB stadium and this was a stall tactic.  As if he was going to line up a Billion dollars to buy  a team.  He is the Felix Sabates of getting an NFL team.  All talk. 

[DMann]

Reese wasn't going to build a stadium, he wanted the city/county to give him some $800 million to do it.  He got the inspiration for MLB when God talked to him as he washed his pickup truck.  No kidding, I heard him say this at a meeting of the Friends of Fourth Ward.

[tozmervo]

1 hour ago, DMann said:

Reese wasn't going to build a stadium, he wanted the city/county to give him some $800 million to do it.  He got the inspiration for MLB when God talked to him as he washed his pickup truck.  No kidding, I heard him say this at a meeting of the Friends of Fourth Ward.

Talk about a failure to know your audience. He should have at least said he was washing his Prius. 

[turbocraig]

4 hours ago, DMann said:

Reese wasn't going to build a stadium, he wanted the city/county to give him some $800 million to do it.  He got the inspiration for MLB when God talked to him as he washed his pickup truck.  No kidding, I heard him say this at a meeting of the Friends of Fourth Ward.

I'm kicking myself for missing that meeting.

[Urban Cowboy]

The Knights stadium footprint could absolutely support a MLB stadium. Just look at Petco Park as an example. With some vision (and permanent road closures), they could totally build out into 4th and Mint street and the Green's Lunch parcel. Then just tear down the current concourse and build up from there. Could even build into Graham and make the surrounding area pedestrian focused. Also, with TV rights and the future of baseball we could probably get away with a 30-35k capacity ballpark. 

 

[#1Son]

7 hours ago, tozmervo said:

Just to make sure there's not a misunderstanding about stadium expansion:

The reason the Knights stadium was approved without that ability isn't the stadium itself, it's the adjacent roads. There is physically not enough land available without growing outside of the block. If the ability to expand was the tail wagging the dog, the stadium would have needed to be built outside of uptown or break the uptown street grid (ala spectrum center). 

Point taken.  This is a rough idea but Truist Field could be redesigned and expanded to the size of Camden Yards if the city decided to close Mint Street and reduced the size of Romare Bearden park.  The ballpark broke up the city grid closing 3rd from Mint to Graham already so traffic could easily be routed from the 4th and Mint intersection to Poplar down to MLK and back to Mint.   In theory Green's and the remainder of the surface lot could be incorporated into the expanded ballpark.   Another option would be to tunnel Mint under the right field but that would be super expensive.

Edited May 13, 2021 by #1Son

[videtur quam contuor]

The big money in Baseball, same as in all major sports, is the team regional sports networks (RSN). These RSN out perform any other competing cable programming in the region for nearly every team. A MAJOR issue for a Charlotte team is that we are currently in the television area for FOUR teams, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Washington and Baltimore. It would require an indemnity payment or an ownership share to these teams to justify Charlotte team broadcasts and our region of such a broadcast would be small as the other four teams would fight to keep the metro areas they currently control.  Without the eyes on the television that the RSN provide the cost of the franchise and operation would be impossible to justify.

This is a short report on the issue of ratings from 2019. Maury Brown is an expert in the Business of Baseball.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2019/10/15/2019-mlb-regional-tv-ratings-in-prime-time-remain-solid/?sh=b49d7c13f89e

Game attendance is another area, but without a wide net with an RSN the figures will never balance. Add the cost of a new franchise and only the most deep of all pockets with a will to create television programming, and its attendant costs, with powerful lawyers to fight his opponents/partners for broadcast area/subsidies and a strong local connection and a connection to the sport, with a team willing to move, a relationship with electeds to drop clouds of money for the team and stadium, and, well, is there such a person? I think we know the answer, for today. 

[Durhamite]

3 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

The big money in Baseball, same as in all major sports, is the team regional sports networks (RSN). These RSN out perform any other competing cable programming in the region for nearly every team. A MAJOR issue for a Charlotte team is that we are currently in the television area for FOUR teams, Atlanta, Cincinnati, Washington and Baltimore. It would require an indemnity payment or an ownership share to these teams to justify Charlotte team broadcasts and our region of such a broadcast would be small as the other four teams would fight to keep the metro areas they currently control.  Without the eyes on the television that the RSN provide the cost of the franchise and operation would be impossible to justify.

This is a short report on the issue of ratings from 2019. Maury Brown is an expert in the Business of Baseball.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2019/10/15/2019-mlb-regional-tv-ratings-in-prime-time-remain-solid/?sh=b49d7c13f89e

Game attendance is another area, but without a wide net with an RSN the figures will never balance. Add the cost of a new franchise and only the most deep of all pockets with a will to create television programming, and its attendant costs, with powerful lawyers to fight his opponents/partners for broadcast area/subsidies and a strong local connection and a connection to the sport, with a team willing to move, a relationship with electeds to drop clouds of money for the team and stadium, and, well, is there such a person? I think we know the answer, for today. 

All good talking points, but...but....didn't the naysayers come out the woodworks about chances of the NBA (left and came back) and NFL?    If somebody wants a team in Charlotte and MLB wants a team in Charlotte..so let it be written, so let it be done.  It really is that simple.  I do believe attendance will do well and market SMEs will hammer out respective programming and other issues (this is what they do).

[kermit]

I agree. MLB in Charlotte would be at the top of the small market teams in terms of attendance and viewership. This is a region that LOVES its baseball. As a bonus, MLB would be the biggest contributor to the regional economy of all the major league teams due to the number of games. 

It really just a matter of finding a way to pay for a decent ballpark. At the moment there appears to be no will to pay for one.

[CLT Development]

5 hours ago, #1Son said:

Point taken.  This is a rough idea but Truist Field could be redesigned and expanded to the size of Camden Yards if the city decided to close Mint Street and reduced the size of Romare Bearden park.  The ballpark broke up the city grid closing 3rd from Mint to Graham already so traffic could easily be routed from the 4th and Mint intersection to Poplar down to MLK and back to Mint.   In theory Green's and the remainder of the surface lot could be incorporated into the expanded ballpark.   Another option would be to tunnel Mint under the right field but that would be super expensive.

I would rather eat a raw Pangolin then put another massive sports facility uptown, especially at the loss of of part of our only signature park uptown. Ball parks are so anti urban, and there is plenty of land along transit next to highways in this town. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by The Real Clayton

[JacksonH]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:40 AM, InSouthPark said:

 

IMHO, Charlotte wouldn't support a MLB franchise yet.  We need the young millennials we have now to age up into "+2.5kids" and still have that kind of population growth with Gen Z.  Baseball is an older generations game. There is only so much money to go around for 2.5mil people as it is. 

I'm going to push back on this idea just a little bit.  Before I do, yes, I understand the 60's were a way different time than now and ballplayers got paid a fraction of what they get paid today, even after adjusting for inflation.  I also want to say that I loathe comparisons to Atlanta. I'm only doing it this time to make a point.  There are probably several cities that could qualify for this illustration so Atlantais a random choice.  But here's the point.  The Atlanta Falcons arrived in 1965.  In 1966 Atlanta got the Braves.  And then in 1968 came the Hawks.  So by 1968 Atlanta had earned all three jewels in the major league crown.  And the metro Atlanta population at the time was only 1.7 million, way smaller than metro Charlotte is today.

[KJHburg]

10 hours ago, The Real Clayton said:

I would rather eat a raw Pangolin then put another massive sports facility uptown, especially at the loss of of part of our only signature park uptown. Ball parks are so anti urban, and there is plenty of land along transit next to highways in this town. 

How about on some the Levine vacant land a block or so from the rail line?

[InSouthPark]

10 hours ago, The Real Clayton said:

I would rather eat a raw Pangolin then put another massive sports facility uptown, especially at the loss of of part of our only signature park uptown. Ball parks are so anti urban, and there is plenty of land along transit next to highways in this town. 

Agree. If baseball is such a "regional" draw, we don't need it in a prime location downtown.  Its nice to have Spectrum and BofA downtown because its used for many other "out of towners" events (well BofA will be soon).  I'm not talking Fort Mill (because that location was a disaster...was literally nothing else to do around there).   But why not Ballantyne (if they get the blue line extension) or along the river in the new development (if they get a line)?  Master plan an area around it, not just cram it in uptown. 

[Madison Parkitect]

Putting a stadium out in the suburbs is a disaster, as almost every professional stadium in every sport has shown recently. But as Clayton says, there are better places in Uptown to put the stadium than expanding the Knights' stadium into Romare Bearden. Uptown has tons of surface lots begging for development.

Do I think Charlotte can support a MLB team? No. Do I want to see a new baseball stadium built at the expense of what's probably the best stadium in the minors? No.  Do I want the city to help fund the bill for that stadium? Not really. But if it happens there are better places in the city for it to go. For instance, you could probably fit a new MLB stadium right next to a new Panthers' stadium and create the entertainment district around it, and then you've got a new social heart of Charlotte.

[DMann]

I would tear down the Sheridan and put it there.

[SouthEndCLT811]

48 minutes ago, DMann said:

I would tear down the Sheridan and put it there.

It's actually interesting in baseball you want your stadium positioned where the outfield is east/north east.  Sheridan lot would have a nice view of 277/Midtown as the Uptown skyline is counter intuitive to the positioning of most ballparks.  It's actually kind of a fun challenge to try and find one that has the outfield positioned to the west.  Comerica Park in Detroit is the first one I've found pointing south east but so far that's the only odd one out of Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, PNC Park, Progressive Field, Petco, Nationals Park, Camden.  Gave up after that  

Curiosity got to me on whether any stadiums faced west and found this on reddit

Edited May 14, 2021 by SouthEndCLT811

[Madison Parkitect]

 

40 minutes ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

It's actually interesting in baseball you want your stadium positioned where the outfield is east/north east.  Sheridan lot would have a nice view of 277/Midtown as the Uptown skyline is counter intuitive to the positioning of most ballparks.  It's actually kind of a fun challenge to try and find one that has the outfield positioned to the west.  Comerica Park in Detroit is the first one I've found pointing south east but so far that's the only odd one out of Wrigley, Fenway, Yankee Stadium, PNC Park, Progressive Field, Petco, Nationals Park, Camden.  Gave up after that  

Is that because most games are late afternoon/evening and you'll have less of a sun problem if the highest part of the stadium is to the west?

Edit: Great American in Cincinnati points south east but I'm sure that's just to take advantage of the river view.

Double Edit: Oh wow I found this super cool page by Baseball Almanac that shows the orientation of every stadium. It also points out that the baseball rulebook actually says stadiums should be oriented east/north east. https://www.baseball-almanac.com/stadium/ballpark_NSEW_NL.shtml#:~:text=Major League Baseball clearly states,1.04 to be ignored by

Edited May 14, 2021 by Madison Parkitect

[SouthEndCLT811]

3 minutes ago, Madison Parkitect said:

 

Is that because most games are late afternoon/evening and you'll have less of a sun problem if the highest part of the stadium is to the west?

You got it, batters would have the sun in their eyes looking west.  As you posted I just edited my comment with a pretty cool graphic I found.  Stadiums that are closest to violating this rule are domes.  

Edited May 14, 2021 by SouthEndCLT811

[JacksonH]

2 hours ago, Madison Parkitect said:

For instance, you could probably fit a new MLB stadium right next to a new Panthers' stadium and create the entertainment district around it, and then you've got a new social heart of Charlotte.

In 2004 the San Diego Padres moved to their new Petco Park stadium downtown.  The old suburban Qualcomm stadium had never managed  to do much for that area.  To this day  it's still suburban and completely car-centric and blah.  But Petco Park downtown ignited a big construction boom and it's now surrounded by new apartment towers and bars and restaurants and activity.  My gym opened a few years after Petco Park and it overlooks the inside of the stadium, so I can go work out and look out and see baseball games being played.  It's very cool.  And Petco Park is used for much more than just baseball.  It gets transformed into various different entertainment uses throughout the year including motocross and major concerts (the very biggest concerts get played there).  When  I lived in DC I went up a couple times to see the Orioles play in Baltimore and that stadium was also transformative, as is the Washington Nationals Park, which I've also visited (as opposed  to the more suburban RFK stadium, which is or was a bad area).  So I think it would be a huge mistake not to put a major league stadium in or at least right next to Uptown.  But I also agree that space needs to be saved for a big park.  (Cap the freeway.)

[kermit]

I don’t think a site is the problem for a MLB park, just the money. 

1) It seems pretty clear BoA stadium is moving across the street, that would be a fine site for baseball (and some adjacent buildings)

2) Bryant Park would be an excellent, Silver Line served, site if the details of Stewart Creek could be resolved

3) An MLB ballpark would fit perfectly in the South blvd interchange off the Belk (Removing the Belk solves sooooo many problems)

4) The former mill site at Summit and the NS tracks would also work well (its heavily contaminated so a stadium use would be much better than residential). I do think NCDOT holds the option on it for expanded rail equipment storage however.

5) A Sugar Creek station area ballpark would also work well, aside from not getting the view everyone wants.

 

[hinsp0]

On 5/13/2021 at 10:16 PM, The Real Clayton said:

I would rather eat a raw Pangolin then put another massive sports facility uptown, especially at the loss of of part of our only signature park uptown. Ball parks are so anti urban, and there is plenty of land along transit next to highways in this town. 

I used to know a good Chinese wet market where you could get raw pangolin...  That that was in my pre-pandemic life.  (All blue font)