Fulton Street Farmer's Market

[Ted]

Enjoy your cozy relationship with the neighborhood group, Ted.

Very cool, Brian.

[fotoman311]

Enjoy your cozy relationship with the neighborhood group, Ted.

I'm on the board that made this decision and I've been trying to figure out how to reply to this comment. Really, it probably doesn't deserve a response. Familiarity with Lott3Metz's past work for the MNA and the fact that Ted is invested in the neighborhood and shops at the market did play a role in the board's decision. Why wouldn't it? But that wasn't the only or even the main factor considered.

I don't know you, but your snide comments don't reflect well.

[GRguy]

Just commenting on your great marketing and relationship building with the Association, Ted. You could consider it a compliment.

I do have full faith in the Association and trust that they will do the right thing. After raising hard-earned funds from the citizens of Grand Rapids, I am sure they will have an open and fair bidding process for the actual project. At least three architecture firms will be given the oppoprtunity to present proposals for the completion of the contract documents. Proposals will be available for viewing and the job will be awarded to the lowest bidder. The design work is done (and looks lovely) so the actual CD process should be easy. In this economic climate, I am sure the Association can get competive bids that might even save money from this phase for use on the actual building. I rest easy knowing there will be transparency.

I am curious, as a customary fee for commercial work like this would be about 5%, and with the design money already spent, are you estimating the build out to be about $4-5 million for the head-house and canopy?

[Ted]

Cool, Brian. Thanks for the complement and thanks for your eternal vigilance.

[joeDowntown]

I need a scorecard in order to keep up with this boxing match. Who's in the white shorts throwing out accusations (GRGuy)?

And why the sour comments?

Joe

[fotoman311]

Yesterday was the unveiling of the plans for the FSFM facelift planned by the Midtown Neighborhood Association.

I know you all like drawings, so here they are:

You can find more background info on the Midtown website at http://www.midtowngr.com

The story was also covered by many of the local media outlets:

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/economy/Farmers-market-to-unveil-expansion-plan

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/08/fulton_street_farmers_market_p.html

http://www.fox17online.com/news/fox17-farmers-market-slated-for-facelift,0,6366657.story

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=129234&catid=48

Full disclosure: I'm a board member for the Midtown Neighborhood Association and I fully support this project to make my neighborhood and city awesome!

Bonus fact: Now in it's second year, both EBT and Debit/Credit card sales are well outpacing last year's strong numbers, providing a convenient way for customers to buy more food and providing access to fresh food for people struggling in the current economy.

[organsnyder]

Bravo. I am hopeful that this plan comes to fruition.

I don't understand people's gripes with parking (as seen in the GR Press article). Yes, parking is tight, especially on Saturdays, but what do the complainers want to see done to fix it? Short of razing adjacent houses or building multiple levels (underground parking beneath the market would be very cool if given unlimited resources), there's simply nothing that can be done. The current situation isn't really that bad, even on Saturdays - there are usually open spots near the end of the rows (everyone stops and waits for the first set of reverse lights they see). We usually park a block or two away to avoid the congestion, which also makes a stop for donuts at Van's more convenient :-).

[AlexPKeaton]

Looks good! I like the way this addresses Fulton Street. I'm curious how the indoor display case area would be used.

Parking isn't an issue for me as I live within walking distance (~1 mile).

[fotoman311]

Looks good! I like the way this addresses Fulton Street. I'm curious how the indoor display case area would be used.

Parking isn't an issue for me as I live within walking distance (~1 mile).

It's my impression that the indoor fixtures, along with the fixtures that will line all of the stalls, haven't been spec'ed, yet. The plan will be to continue working with the vendors to figure out what would be most useful for them.

I do know that the current plans have those walls in the building that face the plaza being similar to the garage door/windows that are installed at Founder's so that the indoor space can be opened up during the good weather months and vendors will potentially be able to have product facing the plaza.

Additionally, much of the work and a big chunk of the cost cannot be seen in these drawings, because it has to do with regrading the whole site so that it is handicap accessible and installing proper stormwater management to eliminate the mini-lakes that currently form with a heavy rain. I was surprised to learn that Coldbrook Creek runs underground right below this site, under the 3rd or 4th parcel down from Fulton on Fuller Avenue. So, they have to construct a retaining wall to hold up the decreased slope, without disturbing the creek running underneath. My hats off to Nederveld for figuring all of this out!

[grbrit]

I was surprised to learn that Coldbrook Creek runs underground right below this site, under the 3rd or 4th parcel down from Fulton on Fuller Avenue. So, they have to construct a retaining wall to hold up the decreased slope, without disturbing the creek running underneath.

When they resurface the area over the creek, they should use tempered glass (like that used for the Sears Tower Sky Deck) with lights underneath

[RegalTDP]

Thanks for the drawings & extra details, Foto. I think the plaza will look great from Fulton. And I was completely unaware of what an engineering feat this will be.

But what's with the big red FSFM? Is that really going to be there, or am I just imagining it? I'm all for visible signage, but that's a tad obnoxious. How about a modest archway atop those front columns instead?

[amylynne]

Thanks for the drawings & extra details, Foto. I think the plaza will look great from Fulton. And I was completely unaware of what an engineering feat this will be.

But what's with the big red FSFM? Is that really going to be there, or am I just imagining it? I'm all for visible signage, but that's a tad obnoxious. How about a modest archway atop those front columns instead?

Ted can correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I recall the big letters are more a place holder to say, hey we're going to have this huge blank canvas on this roof section and we could fill it with some kind of signage. No one has signed off on painting big red block letters on the roof.

Here's my disclosure since my husband (there's some more disclosure) started it: I'm on the FSFM Development Committee

[fotoman311]

When they resurface the area over the creek, they should use tempered glass (like that used for the Sears Tower Sky Deck) with lights underneath

I believe the goal is actually to not disturb the corridor the creek currently runs in by using a certain type of riggings to anchor the wall. Once you start messing with the old tunnel the creek runs through, you could open a whole can of worms that we don't really want to get into.

[Gorath]

I thought the complaint about parking was from the homeowners/renters living in the area.

Which is what you hear from people who live around Houseman Field. Or live just up the hill from GRCC.

[RegalTDP]

Ted can correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I recall the big letters are more a place holder to say, hey we're going to have this huge blank canvas on this roof section and we could fill it with some kind of signage. No one has signed off on painting big red block letters on the roof.

Here's my disclosure since my husband (there's some more disclosure) started it: I'm on the FSFM Development Committee

Thanks, I had a sense I was asking a stupid question.

[Raildudes dad]

I believe the goal is actually to not disturb the corridor the creek currently runs in by using a certain type of riggings to anchor the wall. Once you start messing with the old tunnel the creek runs through, you could open a whole can of worms that we don't really want to get into.

It's the Coldbrook Creek - South Branch. It's a 120" elliptical brick arch pipe built in 1919 (91 years old). The pipe runs east-west 4 lots north of Fulton from east of Fuller to the rear of the lots on the west side of Fuller, then goes north along the east side of the FSM to the Michigan Street area to the Corderoy Drain (used to occasionally explore that area east of Highland Park when I was a kid). I would agree, one doesn't want to mess with the old pipe

[GR_Urbanist]

It's the Coldbrook Creek - South Branch. It's a 120" elliptical brick arch pipe built in 1919 (91 years old). The pipe runs east-west 4 lots north of Fulton from east of Fuller to the rear of the lots on the west side of Fuller, then goes north along the east side of the FSM to the Michigan Street area to the Corderoy Drain (used to occasionally explore that area east of Highland Park when I was a kid). I would agree, one doesn't want to mess with the old pipe

Was this a creek of any significant size? Kind of a shame that it was paved over seeing how little in the way of bodies of water exist deep inside the residential neighborhoods of GR.

[winjer]

Anyone have a map of Coldbrook Creek (or other underground creeks) in Grand Rapids?

[GRDadof3]

Bravo. I am hopeful that this plan comes to fruition.

I don't understand people's gripes with parking (as seen in the GR Press article). Yes, parking is tight, especially on Saturdays, but what do the complainers want to see done to fix it? Short of razing adjacent houses or building multiple levels (underground parking beneath the market would be very cool if given unlimited resources), there's simply nothing that can be done. The current situation isn't really that bad, even on Saturdays - there are usually open spots near the end of the rows (everyone stops and waits for the first set of reverse lights they see). We usually park a block or two away to avoid the congestion, which also makes a stop for donuts at Van's more convenient :-).

The parking situation is horrible. I even took a photo set of the parking situation while we were there shopping last Fall (not even in the busy summer), and it didn't take very long for me to document some close calls between cars and other cars, cars and people, cars and bikes, lines of cars blocking Fulton Street, and just general mayhem.

As I understand it, the new plans address some of the parking issues. Can anyone confirm that?

[amylynne]

The parking situation is horrible. I even took a photo set of the parking situation while we were there shopping last Fall (not even in the busy summer), and it didn't take very long for me to document some close calls between cars and other cars, cars and people, cars and bikes, lines of cars blocking Fulton Street, and just general mayhem.

As I understand it, the new plans address some of the parking issues. Can anyone confirm that?

It's going to address it the best it can. There's no way to prevent people from driving poorly. As you can see in the drawings the one ways will most likely be reversed. There is a traffic study of the area taking place to determine if this is the best option, but it's looking likely. You will also see in the drawing that there will be a place inside the parking lot to change directions, so hopefully there will less of the getting stuck in a big long line with no way out.

[fotoman311]

Anyone have a map of Coldbrook Creek (or other underground creeks) in Grand Rapids?

Yes! These maps were published as part of the Green Grand Rapids master planning process that wrapped up last fall. The file is decent sized, it took a minute or 2 to load on my low-end DSL connection.

http://www.ci.grand-rapids.mi.us/download_upload/binary_object_cache/greengr_Natural%20systems%20atlas.pdf

Check out page 4 for the stream corridors.

[Raildudes dad]

Was this a creek of any significant size? Kind of a shame that it was paved over seeing how little in the way of bodies of water exist deep inside the residential neighborhoods of GR.

The pipe was put in a little before my time, my dad was born in 1919 . I occasionally played in Highland Park. The creek was too wide to jump over.

Here's a copy of the Drain Commission map of the drains in the east side area. Coldbrook Creek - South Branch goes underground at the NW corner of the Aquinas campus next to Wilcox Park. I'm pretty sure it was enclosed in 1919 because it was a combined sewer.

The map shows the pipe in Fuller Ave. It's actually at the rear of the lots on the west side of Fuller.

img-902162701(2).pdf

[GRDadof3]

It's going to address it the best it can. There's no way to prevent people from driving poorly. As you can see in the drawings the one ways will most likely be reversed. There is a traffic study of the area taking place to determine if this is the best option, but it's looking likely. You will also see in the drawing that there will be a place inside the parking lot to change directions, so hopefully there will less of the getting stuck in a big long line with no way out.

I wouldn't say it was people driving poorly; it was more a combination of the mix of vendor vehicles parked willy nilly and shallow parking spaces on the outside that creates a lot of blind spots and pinch points (as you can see in the pictures).

I was only pointing out that it's a bigger issue than some people make it out to be. And it's a reality that most people drive to the farmer's market, not walk. We usually don't even try to park in the lots, and instead park in the outlying neighborhoods (which I'm sure those people love that, ha).

[fotoman311]

I wouldn't say it was people driving poorly; it was more a combination of the mix of vendor vehicles parked willy nilly and shallow parking spaces on the outside that creates a lot of blind spots and pinch points (as you can see in the pictures).

I was only pointing out that it's a bigger issue than some people make it out to be. And it's a reality that most people drive to the farmer's market, not walk. We usually don't even try to park in the lots, and instead park in the outlying neighborhoods (which I'm sure those people love that, ha).

But really, GRDad, isn't that how it SHOULD work in an urban environment? Even if we had the space to build all of the parking spaces that are required so that everyone on a busy Saturday in August had a place to park their cars, then that asphault would be empty for 95+% of the rest of the days in the year, in addition to 18 hours of those busiest days. It would look like a Meijer parking lot or any of the large malls. The market would be surrounded by a sea of asphault, with a few cars parked up next to the vendors. It's one of the major things that is wrong with suburban design. We simply cannot build the market so that everyone gets a parking spot right across from the vendor they want to visit.

I do agree that the current situation is hectic on a busy day, but I think since everyone is going so slowly, and actually being cautious, there are not many crashes. I can bring it up with the market manager and at the next Vendor committee meeting to see if next season an emphasis could be put on the vendors parking as close to their stalls as they can. It certainly is something we should be working to minimize.

[amylynne]

I wouldn't say it was people driving poorly; it was more a combination of the mix of vendor vehicles parked willy nilly and shallow parking spaces on the outside that creates a lot of blind spots and pinch points (as you can see in the pictures).

I was only pointing out that it's a bigger issue than some people make it out to be. And it's a reality that most people drive to the farmer's market, not walk. We usually don't even try to park in the lots, and instead park in the outlying neighborhoods (which I'm sure those people love that, ha).

I wrote a short story response, but then on my lunch time walk decided to go with an abridged version. If anyone wants to hear the rest we might need to set aside an evening.

I don't think anyone would say that parking isn't an issue. Whether it is a big or a small issue comes down to perception.

Is parking in the current Market lot messy and could it be better? Absolutely! The redevelopment plan addresses this in the best way it can while working with the limited space available and accommodating both shoppers and vendors. Improving traffic flow, a lot not covered with potholes and ponds and better defined parking spots are bound to improve the situation.

Will everyone be able to find a wonderful, close parking spot quickly on a Saturday morning? Probably not and I think this will always be the case at any popular location or event without a large exclusive lot.