Northlake Mall

[StevenRocks]

If and when they

Edited May 10, 2005 by StevenRocks

[fulcrumsf]

Im glad to see Borders Books and Music on the list. It would be a shorter drive then to have to go to South Park, or Birkdale Barnes & Noble. Me living in the University area.

[DigitalSky]

Im glad to see Borders Books and Music on the list. It would be a shorter drive then to have to go to South Park, or Birkdale Barnes & Noble. Me living in the University area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's def good to see the north side getting a Borders!

[DigitalSky]

www.shopnorthlake.com click construction update

it's looking like it's on schedule... bunch of new pics

http://www.shopnorthlake.com/images/pg_cache/real_13436.jpg

Dillard's... I hope this is not what SouthPark's is gonna look like but it looks like that in the plan

http://www.shopnorthlake.com/images/pg_cache/real_13435.jpg

Belk - Looks identical to Southpoint in durham

Edited May 15, 2005 by cantnot

[StevenRocks]

Belk and Dillard's both need some new store designs. These are decent but not very exciting.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I agree, I think we can safely say that Northlake will not overtake Southpark.

[Gastonite]

I agree, I think we can safely say that Northlake will not overtake Southpark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did anybody even think this was possible?

NorthLake reminds me of another Carolina Place mall as far as mix of tenants, etc.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Someone mentioned it, something about the lake being a upperclass crowd.

[StevenRocks]

The Northside's more nouveux riche, while South Charlotte is somewhat more traditionally upper class. It makes a difference.

[DigitalSky]

The Northside's more nouveux riche, while South Charlotte is somewhat more traditionally upper class.  It makes a difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It will definately be more like Carolina Pl than SouthPark...

Ballantyne is also nouveux riche.. which is closer to Carolina Place

[Jrb986]

This mall is unexciting. I looked at the retailer line-up..why would anyone want to go here when you can go to Southpark who has the same stores and even more? Northlake..blah...another epitome of crap planning for Mecklenburg county. They say Charlotte will not make the same mistakes that Atlanta Metro committed, but I'm starting to think that we are bumbling quite eagerly into the sprawling mess of surburbia.

[DigitalSky]

This mall is unexciting. I looked at the retailer line-up..why would anyone want to go here when you can go to Southpark who has the same stores and even more? Northlake..blah...another epitome of crap planning for Mecklenburg county. They say Charlotte will not make the same mistakes that Atlanta Metro committed, but I'm starting to think that we are bumbling quite eagerly into the sprawling mess of surburbia. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well i think it's more about the location since the area's been lacking a mall and people being tired of driving to Southpark rather than the variety of stores-- but yeah it's mostly blah, a few surprises though.

[monsoon]

Did anybody even think this was possible?

....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess you guys don't remember when SouthPark was considered the dump mall in Charlotte, and everyone went to Eastland. It's happened before. Southpark's biggest problem is that it is really difficult to get to. No major roads are nearby and traffic is horrible.

In addition, the most expensive real estate in the county is in the Lake area now.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

indeed, but by volume there seem to be more houses over 1mil in South Charlotte.

[monsoon]

You have to add in Iredell, Lincoln and Catawba counties too if going by volume.

[Gastonite]

I guess you guys don't remember when SouthPark was considered the dump mall in Charlotte, and everyone went to Eastland.  It's happened before.  Southpark's biggest problem is that it is really difficult to get to.  No major roads are nearby and traffic is horrible. 

In addition, the most expensive real estate in the county is in the Lake area now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do remember a time when SouthPark wasnt the creme de la creme of Charlotte. It looked just like an ordinary mall, a bit upscale, but nothing too fancy. Your right about Eastland, it was the big mall around town back in the day.

The developers of NorthLake could've went with a super fancy design for the area its located in, but they didnt. It looks like a bigger version of Carolina Place.

[monsoon]

20 years ago, SouthPark was just white brick, nothing special. It was a dated looking early 70s mall. The interior had those plywood box things were people could watch TV while sitting on shag carpet!

The point of the original question that I posed was not would SP be overtaken by Northlake the day it opened.

[SmellyCat]

This mall is unexciting. I looked at the retailer line-up..why would anyone want to go here when you can go to Southpark who has the same stores and even more? Northlake..blah...another epitome of crap planning for Mecklenburg county. They say Charlotte will not make the same mistakes that Atlanta Metro committed, but I'm starting to think that we are bumbling quite eagerly into the sprawling mess of surburbia. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Southpark Mall has been a remarkable turnaround story. It went from plain jane to one of the most premier upscale malls in the country. Yes, country. It is one of the top sales grossers in terms of total sales and on a per square foot basis. Simon, the owner, consistently uses it in its presentations to show the incredible transformation since it acquired it several years ago.

Now several of you are spoiled. You can't expect this level of success from most malls. Especially one that hasn't even opened yet..come on, give it a chance! Taubman, the developer, is one of the best mall operators in the U.S., especially in the high-end segment. They move very slowly and tactfully before they engage in any project. They don't do "crap". They have an outstanding track record, which I why I thoroughly expect Northlake be quite successful.

[DigitalSky]

no major roads nearby

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's true.. SouthPark and Eastland do not have exits at interstate highways. Northlake, Carolina Place, Concord Mills, and The Bridges at Mint Hill will.

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

Southpark Mall has been a remarkable turnaround story.  It went from plain jane to one of the most premier upscale malls in the country.  Yes, country.  It is one of the top sales grossers in terms of total sales and on a per square foot basis.  Simon, the owner, consistently uses it in its presentations to show the incredible transformation since it acquired it several years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have stats for any of this? Thanks. The reason I ask is SouthPark isn't nearly as "upscale" as some other malls in the country. The number of true high-end stores at SP is minimal compared to most malls in the "upscale mall" category. Think of malls like The Americana or even Short Hills Mall. Heck, even South Coast Plaza (which has a Sears no less) has more high-end stores than SP. What about International Mall in Tampa? Or Mall of Millennia in Orlando? I could go on, but nearly every city has at least one seriously high-end mall. I've shopped pretty much all of them, too. So I know what kinds of stores they have vs. SouthPark. I'm not trying to criticize. Honest. But it seems a bit of a stretch to call it "one of the most premier upscale malls in the country". It might be upscale as far as all malls are concerned, but for the category of high-end mall? No way.

As for Northlake. I am saddened to see so much sprawl, but I think it is a viable competitive to SP. What NL mall offers is a convenient place to shop the most popular stores, like Banana Republic. People in the area will most likely shop more consistently at NL since it's close and offers the stores they shop all the time. Why drive all the way down to SP to go to Border's? That's JMO.

[SmellyCat]

Do you have stats for any of this? Thanks. The reason I ask is SouthPark isn't nearly as "upscale" as some other malls in the country. The number of true high-end stores at SP is minimal compared to most malls in the "upscale mall" category. Think of malls like The Americana or even Short Hills Mall. Heck, even South Coast Plaza (which has a Sears no less) has more high-end stores than SP. What about International Mall in Tampa? Or Mall of Millennia in Orlando? I could go on, but nearly every city has at least one seriously high-end mall. I've shopped pretty much all of them, too. So I know what kinds of stores they have vs. SouthPark. I'm not trying to criticize. Honest. But it seems a bit of a stretch to call it "one of the most premier upscale malls in the country". It might be upscale as far as all malls are concerned, but for the category of high-end mall? No way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Girly - first of all, you've missed my point and I apologize if I was vague about it. I'm trying to say I believe Northlake mall will succeed, that Southpark is a great turnaround story, and that Northlake should not be measured up to Southpark. But you obviously focused on the one comment which I was really not even trying to emphasize. But here goes.

Yes, there are lots of upscale malls throughout the U.S. You forgot Aventura in Miami? Or the Glendale Galleria? The Westchester? Westfarms in CT? Cherry Creek in Denver? Phipps in Atlanta? As you say, probably one in every city. But I would certainly put Southpark and its impressive tenant roster in the top 10 to 15 "upscale" malls in the country and as far as I'm concerned, that would designate it as one of the premier upscale malls.

Here's the stats you requested: In 2004, Southpark did $620 per foot in sales (Simon mall average: $420) source: BofA research and Simon's 1Q05 10-Q filing. The average mall throughout the U.S. only generates about $270 per foot. By comparison, Short Hills Mall does about $800 psf (consider the tons of extra foot traffic and marked up prices as it is located just outside of NYC).

Here's why we have reason to be optimistic about Northlake: Taubman malls, on average, generate $477 per foot (source: Taubman 2004 10-K filing). Taubman, ironically, owns the Short Hills Mall, International Plaza and Mall of Millenia you mention above. And a quote from a well-regarded REIT analyst: "With Simon's upscale SouthPark dominating the southern Charlotte MSA, Northlake should be able to establish itself as the dominant mall in the northern part of town." Optimistic? Sure...but the overused expression "build it and they will come" always seems to play out...especially in retail. After all, what stupid Americans actually save anymore?

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

I still disagree that SouthPark would be in the top 10. I'd place it higher than the new "upscale" mall in Jax, but of the 11 (combined) we mentioned, SP ranks lower than those in my opinion. I think my opinion differs than most because I don't consider a store like Anthropologie to be high-end although some people do. But I think SP has more in common with Lenox Mall than it does with Phipps. It has a larger mix of more pedestrian friendly stores, like Gap than it does high-end boutiques like Jimmy Choo. My guess is it's those lesser priced retailers that carry SouthPark right now. Neiman Marcus will do well at SP because they've downsized the couture and increased presence of brands like Juicy Couture, Blue Cult and Theory. I think over time, SP will grow into a better mall. But as it stands it's on the low end of the high-end malls. It's a definite contender. It's just not quite there yet, IMO.

I agreed with you about NorthLake. I just think they'll generate tons of mall traffic with the presence of of hugely popular chain stores. I think there will be less of a need for people living in North Charlotte to drive down to SouthPark.

Oh, thanks for the stats....

[StevenRocks]

Americana Manhassett is entirely different mall than SouthPark. There's no need to compare the fanciest strip mall in America to a 1.5 million square foot regional mall.

SouthPark is on track to be one of the most upscale malls in the country. One thing that one must consider in evaluating SouthPark versus other malls in its class is its size and the local economy.

It's the second largest mall in the Carolinas and expanded when the economy was tanking, but shopper interest was high. A lot of really high end stores were playing it safe a few years ago and didn't want to invest in smaller markets like Charlotte for fear that the concepts would not work. Those that did (Louis Vuitton, Burberry, Tiffany) are reaping major rewards, and those that haven't discovered SouthPark are trying to get in.

In the meantime, Simon did what any smart developer would do. To round out the mall, they sidestepped the unsure retailers and filled the empty spaces with better-known chains that will likely be eradicated after their leases run out in favor of the upmarket stores that should have been in those spaces in the first place. There's no sense in leaving a mall with empty spaces when you can make money off stores that add to the continuity and appeal of the mall.

What carries SouthPark is the total mix of stores, not the boutiques, not the American Eagle or Banana Republic, not even Nordstrom.

Edited May 16, 2005 by StevenRocks

[dubone]

In the meantime, Simon did what any smart developer would do.  To round out the mall, they sidestepped the unsure retailers and filled the empty spaces with better-known chains that will likely be eradicated after their leases run out in favor of the upmarket stores that should have been in those spaces in the first place.  There's no sense in leaving a mall with empty spaces when you can make money off stores that add to the continuity and appeal of the mall.

What carries SouthPark is the total mix of stores, not the boutiques, not the American Eagle or Banana Republic, not even Nordstrom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what stores are examples of the 'the better-known chains' that won't get their leases renewed (in general)? Are you referring to banana republic, AE, and the other mall standards? i'd be very surprised if south park ends up with only the upscale stores. Are there any other malls that don't have those "typical" chains, and only have the upscale burberry, LV, level chains?

[charlotte_bon_vivant]

First of all, Smellycat ranked SouthPark as one of the most premier upscale malls in the country. Americana was one of the examples of that statement not being entirely true. We both listed malls that are IMO better malls with a higher percentage of high-end stores than SouthPark.

I already stated that SP has potential to be a great mall. Of course, in that time there will be other more exclusive malls to open that will challenege my assertion. It's a fact of our crazy retail industry. The "upscale lifestyle center" is one of the hottest trends now.

Lots of malls expanded and some have opened for business during the economic downturn. However, most high-end stores are still playing it safe in some regard. Look at Neiman Marcus, both at SouthPark and on a national level. The store at SP is the 2nd smallest in the country. They want to be here, but they don't want to take a big chance either. Since 2000 NM has greatly reduced the amount of true luxury goods they carry while expanding their less expensive "junior trends" division. That's also where NM has seen the biggest upswing in sales. As for LV, Burberry and Tiffany repaing major rewards, please provide the data for the individual stores. Thanks. Also, which new high-end retailers are trying to move into SouthPark? Again, thank you.

No, Simon did what they do with most of their malls. That's how they develop them to drive traffic. However, I don't think they used retailers like Express to "round out" the mall. They went to those retailers first since they're most likely to expand.

Stores/brands like Banana Republic carry the entire fashion retail industry. You think they don't carry the malls, too? MOST people will shop BR BEFORE they shop LV. Brands like LV have a higher price point, but in the U.S. they don't sell quite as well as the less expensive brands. This isn't Hong Kong, ya know.