Baton Rouge Coffee House

[buckett5425]

Sorry it took me a few days to respond, I've been very busy school and work.

I hope y'all enjoyed the article. My personal opinion is that I couldn't agree more David Cronrath. That has been my opinion for sometime now and it is refreshing to see that other people with influence share the same ideas. I could go on for pages, I am sure, but I am just going to leave it at that. I really was just looking forward to reading y'alls points of view.

[dan326]

Hey Richy, I saw your comment on BR Business Report about sprawl in Shreveport and do have to admit that it seems interesting to me that they realize they need to cut down on sprawl and they're dense while most Baton Rouge metro is made up of sprawl and we still haven't quite got the message. It's good that developers are trying to TNDs, but a TND on the outskirts of town like Willow Grove is quite "urban infill" to the fullest. We need more developments like the one under the Perkins overpass and places like the Shaw Center for the Arts which has done a good job of using ever inch of the block it's on.

[richyb83]

That's funny you saw that Dan, I have been chiming in lately on BusinessReport...esp past issue's with Capitol Lofts and other frustrating rants! It's true Shreveport seems more dense and has better land use..then again that's no accomplishment when compared to BR.

That's why I strongly favor Rouzan...BR doesn't even begin to know what density is! The sprawling single-entrance cookie-cutter butterfly garden subdivisions feeding into the collector roads are a BIG reason traffic is such a problem! Yet the locals are spoiled and turn a blind eye! You are so right that "urban infil" is where it's at!! Funny you mention the Perkins Road Overpass area (wanted to start thread for many months now) will probably soon since you brought it up! It was a TND before they had the label "TND"! Really a unique place for BR...

Edited October 17, 2009 by richyb83

[buckett5425]

After reading a lot more books on city development, I am not against Rouzan as well. It is no better then perkins rowe, or any other crappy subdivision. Its not a "real community" its a developers cartoon imitation of one, and its so sad that we have all bought into it. The people that live in the development aren't going to walk to the library, they are going to drive there, and that is only issue number one...

[cajun]

After reading a lot more books on city development, I am not against Rouzan as well. It is no better then perkins rowe, or any other crappy subdivision. Its not a "real community" its a developers cartoon imitation of one, and its so sad that we have all bought into it. The people that live in the development aren't going to walk to the library, they are going to drive there, and that is only issue number one...

There aren't many "real communities" left in this country....all the more reason to work hard to preserve neighborhoods that are worth preserving.

I've read several articles that point out the possibility that these new types of TNDs could come into their own as they age.

We'll see in 30-40 years, I guess.

Edited October 18, 2009 by cajun

[dan326]

After reading a lot more books on city development, I am not against Rouzan as well. It is no better then perkins rowe, or any other crappy subdivision. Its not a "real community" its a developers cartoon imitation of one, and its so sad that we have all bought into it. The people that live in the development aren't going to walk to the library, they are going to drive there, and that is only issue number one...

I understand what you're saying but then again, how many people really walk to anything anymore if they don't have to? I know the only reason I walk around LSU is because I have to park on the outskirts and the same goes for downtown. Heck, I know people that will drive from one department store to another in the same mall and that's an air-conditioned walk!

[buckett5425]

The majority of my argument really has nothing to do with walking, that was just a drunken 2 am banter.

I am going to try and make this as short as possible.

First, in order for a place to be successful, it has to be a place worth saving and appreciating. Anything Pries builds is going to be a cheep knock off of some 19th century town, with poor architecture that is not going to age very well.

Secondly for a place to thrive economically and socially, you need diversity. You need diversity by race, culture, and socio-economic class. This development will probably mostly contain white middle class and therefore not be diverse.

Thirdly, this isnt a real community, its a "disney world" interpretation of a community. A real community forms when people are invested personally with an area such as spanish town, that can develop a sense of place. Rouzan will be a pre-made packaged community that people simply move into, and dont really have an interest in keeping it up other then wanting high property values. It will be a "new hip" area of town. The second something better is built, people will move there, and this development will fail.

Fourthly, the development contains to much retail. Preis isnt trying to cater to rouzan, hes is trying to cater to the entire perkins road area. People will be driving from all over town to shop here, which will only lead to more problems.

Also, people call this "infill," but i disagree. Infill would be taking dilapidated blocks of the city, and repurposing them for todays needs. This on the other hand is taking green open space and destroying it. We should know by now that engineers can not replace mother nature in reducing heat islands, or dealing with water runoff, or absorption into the ground.

To sum it up, New Urbanist communities are a total joke. We instead should be sustaining growth from already successful areas of town, such as the perkins road over pass area and growing form those areas.

I am just not buying into all of this like i used to be. New urbanism is a marketing tool, not a sustainable, or worthwhile development.

That was a summary of my argument, i could probably talk about this for hours, lol. Just thought i would save yall the trouble

[cajun]

I understand what you're saying but then again, how many people really walk to anything anymore if they don't have to? I know the only reason I walk around LSU is because I have to park on the outskirts and the same goes for downtown. Heck, I know people that will drive from one department store to another in the same mall and that's an air-conditioned walk!

Yeah...when it's 95 degrees in frigging October with 80% humidity...I don't see myself walking more than two or three blocks during the day unless I'm out running for exercise. I don't like arriving to work or to the bookstore covered in sweat or soaking from having just walked through a surprise rainstorm.

The best I can hope for is reasonable driving distances, because there's no way you can put everyone within an "easy" walk (in this kind of weather) to everything they need.

And, like I said, I think this country will embrace alternative fuels way before they embrace "true" smart growth.

Edited October 19, 2009 by cajun

[buckett5425]

And, like I said, I think this country will embrace alternative fuels way before they embrace "true" smart growth.

I agree with you Cajun.

Rather then cutting back and bringing our lives to a reasonable scale, people will fight for alternative fuels. But no fuels can drive our lifestyle like cheap and abundant fossil fuels. When fossil fuels run out, no amount of renewable energy can cheaply sustain this way of life.

My favorite myth is that we will shift to a Hydrogen Economy. Well, in theory that sound great. A source of energy that is the most abundant element in the universe and only emits water? If it sounds to good to be true, it is....

Hydrogen, on planet earth, isn't a source of energy, its an energy medium, meaning its a way to store already created energy. Hydrogen doesn't exist naturally on earth, therefore we must create it (which costs energy). As of right now we only have two sources of Hydrogen, water and fossil fuels.

The process by which we extract hydrogen from water takes more energy to put into the process, then the Hydrogen yields when its burned. It doesn't make sense, even from a profitability stand point. With out some technological leaps in bounds, that will never be a worthwhile endeavor.

The only other place we can get hydrogen from is fossil fuels. Ironically enough, many investors know the american public have bought into this idea, so what are they doing? They are building LNG terminals all along the southern coast so that we can import natural gas in from the middle east as demand rises over the next 20 years. Which means we will still be burning fossil fuels for this "clean hydrogen energy" and still be dependent on foreign sources of energy.

Wether we like it our not, there just is not enough energy in the world to sustain our suburban metropolis. American cities will, and have to transform into cities based on an european model. We will always have automobiles, but the idea of using a car everyday as the number one form of transportation will end.

[cajun]

To some extent, you are correct.

But the unintended consequence of our actions (sprawl), means that this country will likely devise a way to telecommute, or perhaps be a driver in alternative fuels or electric vehicles.

Granted....I'm on the waiting list for the new Chevrolet Volt...so I'm a little biased here. I am a believer in human ingenuity, and unfortunately we'll just develop ways to continue our normal social trends (the single family home with privacy fence), even as the population of this country pushes 500 million people- which is expected within 30 years.

America is a very diverse place economically, racially, and culturally. Every single group (or bracket, if you prefer) harbors animosity towards one another for whatever reason, and all groups are guilty of closet racism. Based on experience and several books on the topic, we are ahead of the curve in a number of ways, but I think that's just a veil. We don't deal with our problems or differences, we just choose to insulate ourselves from one another...so we appear like we are making progress on the surface, but in reality, we just find new and different ways to avoid each other.

There's other reasons for sprawl- local tax structures, availability of adequate, affordable, quality housing, traffic patterns, and quality of public services.. I still believe, while we are cordial to each other most of the time, deep down we don't really want to be imposed on or bothered...so what appears to be "progress" on the racism front or the socio economic front is really just innovative ideas to avoid one another. The single family home with a 6' tall privacy fence is the "American dream". We mosty don't want to know our neighbors. We want full control over who we associate with. We want to be able to completely withdraw when tensions get high, as they occasionally get.

It's a sad truth, but I've found that birds of a feather tend to flock together- with few exceptions based on strong friendships, but nothing more.

So, call me cynical, but there's no way that you'll get the GDIs to accept the "greek" students, the high income blacks to mingle with low income hispanics, the white middle class to embrace the working class blacks, or any other socio-economic group to reach out to another. My friends from grad school would never socialize with my friends from my hometown. And people tend to get more and more narrow minded with age. Also, when you have kids, your whole social life changes completely and you don't even notice- your child becomes the most important person in your life instead of yourself or your friends or your community- and this is the nation of pioneers...our natural tendency is to be self sustaining (which is great) and to isolate ourselves (which is unnecessary) by constantly seeking and meeting new frontiers or new goals. Of course, we naturally are attracted to (and attract) people with similar personalities as ourselves without evfen knowing it, which contributes to the segregated society that we are in.

I've actually found that I knew more of my neighbors and more people in the community when I was a child, living in a house on a 10 acre plot of land. Total isolation...which is what many Americans seek....yet we knew our neighbors and many people in our community and spoke to them on a daily basis. Now, I live in Baton Rouge, on a 1/4 acre lot with sidewalks, access to parks, and dozens of "meeting places".....and I don't know anyone here that wasn't an old friend already. No one seems to make any effort in introducing themselves, and it sucks because in much closer proximity to them than ever before.

Edited October 20, 2009 by cajun

[buckett5425]

Cajun,

The future you describe is a very bleak one, at best.

The suburbs were the greatest social and economic experiment in the history of mankind and it failed, and its only going to get worse.

If someone wants to be a recluse, thats fine. But the idea that people are so stuck on their wasteful habits that our entire society will be based around sitting in our homes, and only communicating through telecommunications is disgusting. I wont let my country come to such a terrible and meager existence. There is a reason why all of the "great cities" of the world are based around a core with dense, diverse urban activity. These even include smaller cities such as charleston. Most cities in the US aren't worth saving, because they are, well, crap. I am speaking of the suburbs of course.

I dont know how else to stress this, but when our economy and energy reaches a tipping point, in 15 or 30 years. We will not have the energy to rebuild our cities, or the capital. We must make progress now, but people are complacent and ignorant. I'd vote for someone running on with those ideas, they are way more important then anything else going on in the world right now.

So much wasteful energy goes into the production and driving of cars and building and sustaining a suburban infrastructure, that our country will not be able to sustain it in the near future. That is a fact. That report about shreveport is already starting to suggest that. That the infrastructure in the suburbs costs more to upkeep, and has little development utilizing it, then downtown development.

The idea of the American Dream was created after WWII by developers and car manufactures looking to get rich. Can we all wake up from this dream now? thanks

[dan326]

What a heated discussion! Cajun, I think you are right in your ideas of segregation and the probable invention of alternative fuels. But I also believe Steven brings up a good point in that if we can't find an alternative fuel then suburbs will fall into ruins. But in all honesty, are Americans really going to allow their suburban dreams to end? Highly unlikely.

To some extent, you are correct.

But the unintended consequence of our actions (sprawl), means that this country will likely devise a way to telecommute, or perhaps be a driver in alternative fuels or electric vehicles.

Edited October 21, 2009 by dan326

[buckett5425]

What a heated discussion! Cajun, I think you are right in your ideas of segregation and the probable invention of alternative fuels. But I also believe Steven brings up a good point in that if we can't find an alternative fuel then suburbs will fall into ruins. But in all honesty, are Americans really going to allow their suburban dreams to end? Highly unlikely.

People will lead to their own demise. People wont let their "dream" die, but their dream will none the less transform. Wether people find alternative fuels, rely on telecommunications, or move into denser areas, peoples life styles will change no matter where they live. I just wish people would realize that instead of trying to preserve something that originally was a good idea, but after WWII lost its way.

As for the heated debate, its all in good fun. But this is something im very passionate and upset about. Our future is at stake, and it really bothers me that people have no clue. Also, Cajun told me in a personal message he could tell I would "hold back" on my opinions, and wished i was a little more honest sometimes, haha.

[cajun]

I didn't intend to paint a rosy picture....or to point out what we "should" be doing.

I'm just mentioning that it's very, very likely that we'll continue on the path we are on as a society. Individual efforts to counter this is a good move, but I really don't expect the masses to follow suit anytime soon.

But I think I'm on the spot when it comes to the socio-economic thing. I think people tend to isolate themselves as they get older....I don't think they intend to, it's just something that they gravitate to- and I think people "cope" with one another by limiting contact with people who are vastly different from themselves.

It's not optimal, but it's reality. It's by no means limited to Baton Rouge or the United States. Humans are social creatures, but when it comes to conflicting cultures, I think most people would rather be left alone than to cause trouble or stick their neck out. This is a "live and let live" society...we aren't united for a common goal. We aren't even open to public discourse, and if we do, it usually turns hateful and violent.

Our social-economic situation in America could be the motivation we need to drive the investment and innovation into alternative fuels and alternative forms of transit.

Edited October 21, 2009 by cajun

[richyb83]

I'll try to keep this as short as possible..lol

I can appreciate the discussion; great minds here on UP...Like to see the different angles...I know I am still learning and hopefully continue to learn more! Yall make some fantastic points....nobody has to tell me BR is an urban planner nightmare!

They want to keep us addicted to oil....therefore keeping the illusion of the suburban dream alive. I can understand the desire of living in the burbs as well as the city. The European-village style is cool; with urban growth boundries in place!

White flight has always been interesting stuff to me...crime is every where you can't run from it...you can just as easily move out to Livingston Parish and find a meth-lab in your backyard...however many choose to avoid areas that have high murder rates....and understandably so! Stats show blacks 80-90% tend to kill blacks & white tend to kill themselves 50:1....

I am white, but the Best Man at my wedding is Jamaican and I have worked with alot of inner-city Hearing-Impaired students as a nationally certified interpreter...so I have a fairly broad range of culture & understanding. I realize racism exsist everyhere.; things have come a long way..the "X" factor has been the rapidly increasing Hispanic population...

I agree Buckett....certainly dilapadated city blocks qualify as true "infil" projects..and more of that would be nice around here.. As far as Rouzan goes...if something is gonna get built on that 140-acre pasture would n't that be OK?? Fitted perfectly between Southdowns/Pollard Estates....It's a shame people won't walk to the new library...at least thousands will have that option...opposed to the propsed Burbank branch were driving a car will be the he only way. Rouzan is still & will always have plenty of pristine undeveloped land nearby like the 300-acre? Bayou Duplantier(south) watershed & the 450-acre LSU Rural Plantation(north)...

My question that if something gets built on the pasture?? What should that be ?? This is only 4 miles from downtown!

I under stand the criticisms of the TND's...with the Disney-sterile feel...and the Perkins Road Overpass about 2 miles down the road is more of a true "TND"..old urbanism...still where are the sidewalks??

Edited October 21, 2009 by richyb83

[cajun]

Good points.....

And as far as in fill goes...I think the smaller scale projects are more "fitting" with the "smart growth" concepts- but that's assuming that the quality of design and construction is of good quality. That's hard to find these days.

That being said, we don't really know how these new, large TNDs like Cameilia Blvd in Lafayette will age. They are still fairly new and there's a lot of room for arguments. Developers obviously tend to target the higher income brackets, which doesn't lend the development to real diversity...but who knows how that could change over the long term, especially if the area is properly integrated into the surrounding neighborhood fabric. That's just as big of a challenge as design.

Then again, even the best ideas are value engineered down to nothing these days....

[dan326]

What does that mean?

Then again, even the best ideas are value engineered down to nothing these days....

[cajun]

What does that mean?

Take a decent design, get halfway through building it, then the owner of the project decides they want to cut cost so the project is taken back to the drawing boards with the intent of cutting corners and cheapening the design....Value Engineering.

It is a dirty word.

[buckett5425]

Take a decent design, get halfway through building it, then the owner of the project decides they want to cut cost so the project is taken back to the drawing boards with the intent of cutting corners and cheapening the design....Value Engineering.

It is a dirty word.

Its a terrible word! haha

As for smart growth, you are right cajun. It isnt about building a huge development with a pre-packaged identity. Its about a collection of small buildings, being developed or renovated that really capture the identity of an area, and work together to keep the area thriving. It works because many people have a stake in keeping the community healthy. Pre-package development, such as rouzan, only have a 30 year life to them. After 30 years, the developer has made all the money that can be made out of that development. The retail space is owned by one person(not many) and they will follow the crowds and leave the area because they have nothing invested in the area because they are owned by a national chain. I am not saying national chains and contribute to an urban landscape, but in a large mall style development, they could careless if the neighborhood is successful or not, as long as they made their quick buck.

I personally would like to see projects grow off of already successful "urban" areas of town. As for the rouzan pasture, i would like to see that developed later, when people have a better idea of the problems facing us(which they will never know)

I think downtown has made HUGE strides in a positive direction. I think once the credit market gets better we will start to see tons of new residential projects downtown. Once those get started, and are thriving, i think we will see a huge change in our community.

I recommend everyone watch "the end of suburbia." Its a great documentary, about 74 min long, but the producers posted a 55 min long version on youtube. I think it will really change or enhance your perspective about the near future.

[cajun]

Have faith, Buckett.

I'm sure that with a strong enough residential core, adequate connection to existing (successful) neighborhood fabrics, and a diverse offering of housing options (keep dreaming!), developments like Rouzon may have a chance. It's a long shot, but it's still possible.

You are spot on with the problems they will face, but the saving grace is going to be a boat load of residential options. I think River Ranch in Lafayette and Willow Grove in BR has a better shot than Perkins Rowe or even Atlantic Station in "staying power" because they offer a massive amount of housing- almost enough to keep a good portion of the retail and commercial spaces alive.

I want to know more about those residential options with Rouzon. I'd like to see housing for nearly every price range (I realize they have to earn money, and most of it will be high end), even if it's only a small portion of it. It appears to be a predominantly residential neighborhood....we'll have to see what actually gets built.

As much as I hate big box sores, the damned things somehow stay alive and get re-used, against all odds. Maybe these types of developments will surprise you.

How often is it when I'm the one on this board encouraging everyone to stay positive? I must be having a weird day.

I'll bet that connecting to Pollard and Southdowns (properly) may keep this development afloat in the long run.

Edited October 24, 2009 by cajun

[dan326]

How often is it when I'm the one on this board encouraging everyone to stay positive? I must be having a weird day.

Haha, I was thinking the same thing! But I think I speak for everyone when you I say you are a great asset to this board. You're straight shooter, no-nonsense personality is a good balance to some of our admittedly over zealous-at-times outlook on things. Keep it up, I like reading your thoughtful posts.

[byrde]

Michigan or Notre Dame... Please come get Les Miles!!!!!

[dan326]

Hey ya'll I just saw Disney's "The Princess and the Frog" and I thought it was great!! It was a good story with really good music and beautiful animation. And of course it's a plus that I lived in Louisiana because I got all the lingo. Like in one lines the prince says to someone "I'm from a far away place" and the other guy says "You're from Shreveport?". Of course it would have also been nice if Baton Rouge had gotten a shot out, but we all know how that goes! I'd give it it 4.5-5 stars. Oh and they got the accents right!

I've been a bit of a movie spree lately and I've also seen a couple other movies.

The last movie I saw was "Ninja Assassin". I just want to start of by saying, wait until this comes out on video to see it. it's not that it's bad, it's just not worth going to the movie to see.To me everything was so over-the-top found the entire movie was just plain funny. The blood in this movie flowed like the Mississippi River, it made Kill Bill look modest, but it looked so fake that I doubt it would make anybody too queasy. The story-line was ok, I think it could have been made into something better. I'd give this movie 3 stars.

Another movie I saw was "Twilight Saga : New Moon". It had a decent story-line and I thought the soundtrack was effective. People complain that the lead female actress that plays "Bella" doesn't know how to act and is unemotional. I can see where they're coming from but I still find her acting believable because I know some people that act like that. The CGI wolves look fake but you become accustomed as you see them more.I'd give it 3.5 to 4 stars.

Edited December 19, 2009 by dan326

[richyb83]

Thanks for the movie review My wife was/is wanting to take my little 2 1/2 year old to see the "Princess and the Frog"

Just a little something I wanted to share here on UP; a side hobby when I get a few minutes...I like to draw imaginary city street maps...NOT FINISHED YET...Interstates on the periphery; Airport(ENE/upper right) connector to the university(colored in magenta); small river (left) abt the size of the Amite/Comite; and creek(right) with greenways/walking trails; botanical gardens; arboretum; zoo; etc...research park (NW/upper left)

The core...it's fun to chose WHERE to implement/and "color code"....City Hall; Courthouse; Central Green; Library; Market Square; Arts & Design District; Financial District; Media District; Convention Center & hotels; shopping centers/town centers/urban villages; Theatre District; Garden District; West End...have some lakes...PROJECTS like...City Centre; CityScape; Uptown Village; Arena & Entertainment District; stadium; WHERE & HOW MANY hospitals; lakes; parks;counrty club/golf courses; throw in a community college; Science Center/Planetarium; museums, etc...+ these cities have "more density" and mixed-use & brownstones developments than Baton Rouge...also light rail or street car along major east-west & north-south corridors..and of course the "ideal block" for a "signature high-rise tower"

That about covers it all...I may have missed something?? Not sure when I'll get enough time to complete it all with detail..trying to add a few new master-planned TND's too that are still lightly traced on top map

Here is a older map from a few years back.... I called this one Palm Island City/ a mix of Vegas & Miami..different details...Freeways running thru the middle

I have drawn many others in the past...just wanted to post these

[dan326]

Neat maps! I think you might have shown us Palm City Island before, still very impressive. What is your process of drawing them? Do you draw the downtown first and then add on?