Belk Place: Carolina Theater and Hotel Intercontinental

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, dubone said:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article158464954.html

 

This is huge news that suddenly they need a larger budget and suddenly need private money.   The city's portion was giving the building for $1.   

 

Of course I would want council to support it, but it is a shame that this is coming out last minute after things finally seemed to move forward.   Why not just get a dang loan from the banks and repay it with the proceeds of events. 

Totally agree. Or sell part of their "Billion Dollar Portfolio". I'd rather have tax $ go to a soccer stadium than subsidize this. 

[caterpillar2]

2 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Totally agree. Or sell part of their "Billion Dollar Portfolio". I'd rather have tax $ go to a soccer stadium than subsidize this. 

 The city could have sold it and made a fortune to an investor or contractor. These people have waited until the last minute and now they are claiming they need more money. There have been so many donations for this project that I hope that there is an audit and/or investigation and they lose it. I believe they will sell the place and make tons.  I went by yesterday and saw a couple of people standing around the pick-up with no visible equipment. 

[CLTProductions]

20 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

 The city could have sold it and made a fortune to an investor or contractor. These people have waited until the last minute and now they are claiming they need more money. There have been so many donations for this project that I hope that there is an audit and/or investigation and they lose it. I believe they will sell the place and make tons.  I went by yesterday and saw a couple of people standing around the pick-up with no visible equipment. 

There is definitely something sketchy happening. No way they all a sudden need more money

[alb1no panther]

My take is they exercised their right before the contract voided even though they didn't have the necessary funds, thinking the capital would be provided at one point or another. Shoot-first-ask-questions-last. 

[atlrvr]

I have no inside knowledge, but I suspect final bids on a project as complex as this renovation can be materially higher than initial estimates as the discover conditions of electrical, subfloors, foundations, etc, plus labor costs have gone up A LOT since they first estimated renovation costs.  10% higher than initial estimates over almost 3 years does not seem "sketchy" in my opinion.

As far as taking money out of the billions, that would be akin to stealing, and is jail time.  The billions they manage is dedicated in a trust to go towards the charities/efforts that those donors expected.  The donations for this building came out of a completely separate fundraising effort, where those donors were clear their money would go to this theatre project and not programs.

As far as the city selling it and making a ton....probably, but that would have most likely resulted in the demolition of the theatre....I think it is naïve to assume Ark Mgmt could have renovated this at a lower cost and figured out how to make a profit without subsidy.

 

[caterpillar2]

17 hours ago, atlrvr said:

I have no inside knowledge, but I suspect final bids on a project as complex as this renovation can be materially higher than initial estimates as the discover conditions of electrical, subfloors, foundations, etc, plus labor costs have gone up A LOT since they first estimated renovation costs.  10% higher than initial estimates over almost 3 years does not seem "sketchy" in my opinion.

As far as taking money out of the billions, that would be akin to stealing, and is jail time.  The billions they manage is dedicated in a trust to go towards the charities/efforts that those donors expected.  The donations for this building came out of a completely separate fundraising effort, where those donors were clear their money would go to this theatre project and not programs.

As far as the city selling it and making a ton....probably, but that would have most likely resulted in the demolition of the theatre....I think it is naïve to assume Ark Mgmt could have renovated this at a lower cost and figured out how to make a profit without subsidy.

 

I believe that the organization and all involved were aware of the cost of waiting in regards to inflation, etc. I also believe that it is better to have something there than a void for more years. Obtaining this property with the stipulation that the theater would be renovated would be a deal that many contractors would have competed for and even paid more than a dollar. I just want to see this project get moving during our lifetime. It is possible that they were actually inside the theater the other day. However, I didn't see any construction equipment or anything indicating so.

[tozmervo]

31 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

I believe that the organization and all involved were aware of the cost of waiting in regards to inflation, etc. I also believe that it is better to have something there than a void for more years. Obtaining this property with the stipulation that the theater would be renovated would be a deal that many contractors would have competed for and even paid more than a dollar. I just want to see this project get moving during our lifetime. It is possible that they were actually inside the theater the other day. However, I didn't see any construction equipment or anything indicating so.

While I question how appropriate it is for the city to give this project more money (on top of the extremely generous site donation), I will defend this point: construction prices right now are crazy high and crazy unpredictable. The labor market has gotten so bad for electricians and mechanical subs, for example, that they can write their own ticket onto some massive projects. When there's no competition, you can see bids for that kind of work up to twice what it would usually cost

[caterpillar2]

I question whether the set asides for this project were invested in a manner that would pay interest or dividends to off set inflation. A big project like this would create competition if it were up for bids. Oh well, it is what it is. At lease we still have Tryon Place to look forward to. LOL. I hope I will have to eat my words and the project gets underway full speed. 

[KJHburg]

Imagine a 25 story glass hotel on this lot. It will look great there squeezed in. 

[tarwater]

What do you think "value engineering and cutbacks" means?

[tozmervo]

9 minutes ago, tarwater said:

What do you think "value engineering and cutbacks" means?

It's their way of saying that they've already cut a lot of costs out of the project, and the scope that is left is what they really need

[caterpillar2]

I smell a law suit. Unless the Foundation is run by individuals without a clue, there should be a turnover in personnel. As a former contractor of multi-million dollar contracts, all involved should have been aware that there is normally  a 10% expectation cost due to inflation and material costs. It has been at least four years. The extra cost would have been anticipated by a reasonable, prudent, businessman. I find it incredible that the city gave this place away for a dollar and now will probably pay the extra needed. To bad this place can't be taken away from this foundation and sold to somebody that does what they promise and takes responsibility. Seriously, there is no excuse for not having the funding to get going on this already past deadline project. I hope the city has learned some lessons here. Oh yea, how about the massive contributions already made by Bank of America , etc? I think there should be an audit.

Edited July 13, 2017 by caterpillar2

[urbanlover568]

12 minutes ago, caterpillar2 said:

I smell a law suit. Unless the Foundation is run by individuals without a clue, there should be a turnover in personnel. As a former contractor of multi-million dollar contracts, all involved should have been aware that there is normally  a 10% expectation cost due to inflation and material costs. It has been at least four years. The extra cost would have been anticipated by a reasonable, prudent, businessman. I find it incredible that the city gave this place away for a dollar and now will probably pay the extra needed. To bad this place can't be taken away from this foundation and sold to somebody that does what they promise and takes responsibility. Seriously, there is no excuse for not having the funding to get going on this already past deadline project. I hope the city has learned some lessons here. Oh yea, how about the massive contributions already made by Bank of America , etc? I think there should be an audit.

I agree. Company should take the hit for their negligence. 

[AP3]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article161228823.html

Looks like the City is going to front the additional $4.5M.

[Dale]

Expected them to roll over here just as I expected them to sign off on several years delay for the Amtrak station.

[Dale]

Not clear, are the theatre and hotel tied together on this bailout ?

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Dale said:

Not clear, are the theatre and hotel tied together on this bailout ?

Nope, just the theatre and the base of the hotel, I'm assuming the lobby will be delivered to Intercontinental for upfitting.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Guest

[Dale]

3 hours ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Nope, just the theatre and the base of the hotel, I'm assuming the lobby will be delivered to Intercontinental for upfitting.

Gotcha.

 

[KJHburg]

Is this new news that the hotel is now 270 rooms up from 250 and there is a rooftop restaurant planned? From the Business Journal today https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2017/07/13/skyrocketing-construction-costs-delays.html

[KJHburg]

City approves the $4.5 million for the theatre renovation so I guess this will soon get started already. https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2017/07/24/clt-council-approves-4-5m-for-carolina-theatre.html  On a personal note my mom saw Elvis Presley here and saw many movies here. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by KJHburg

[dubone]

I think $4.5m in tourism money is really pretty good after so many other elements are finally together.   Even if the FFTC was shrewed and waited till the last 100y dash to ask for city money, just the fact that the redevelopment will add that annually to general coffers, it is an easy win.  The public good is clear in this case, it is just a shame it was not able to get over the edge with philanthropy, but it is hopefully also a net positive that they are doing a restoration rather than just a rudimentary upfit like has been planned for the Carolina Theater in the previous decade.  

 

When it's all completed, we can start to benefit from all that recalled history like Elvis.  

[KJHburg]

Just talked to mom about her most famous show she saw at the Carolina. It was 1956 and a movie was played but after the movie a new star on the scene was to appear. That man was Elvis Presley. Her and my now deceased aunt were at the show which kept getting delayed and finally Elvis came out. However my aunt had to work as a cracker packer at the Lance factory (located at 1300 South Blvd now condos) so they had to WALK OUT on Elvis so my aunt could get to work on time. They were really disappointed but my aunt worked the 11 pm to 7 am shift at Lance. 

When I told her it would be finally be renovated she said "About time!" 

[Dale]

Haven't been Uptown in three weeks. Any stirrings on this since they got the additional funding ?

[elrodvt]

Not really. 

[Scribe]

Given the age of the building, the first thing that would need to happen is the Piled foundation would need to be set to support the tower.

Nothing can start until all the necessary piles are bored/dug and poured. It is possible that some of the initial work for the foundation is happening inside the theater?