Belk Place: Carolina Theater and Hotel Intercontinental

[Spartan]

This is a pretty building, but the number of units is really dissapointing. The number of millionaires in the city is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Maybe its just because I haven't been here very long, but I just don't see how the number of $1 million plus units that are on the table between this and other projects can be sustained. I just think Charlotte is beyond the point where a sharp looking building is all you need to be accepted.

And who cares about parking? IMO, if Charlotte really is the next big up an coming city in the US, then it should be able to support some units without parking (there are plenty of private lots and garages around that they can park in). Parking shouldn't even be required in Center City. Does anyone know what the ratio for parking spaces is for residential or commercial buildings in center city?

[Andyc545]

This is a pretty building, but the number of units is really dissapointing. The number of millionaires in the city is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Maybe its just because I haven't been here very long, but I just don't see how the number of $1 million plus units that are on the table between this and other projects can be sustained. I just think Charlotte is beyond the point where a sharp looking building is all you need to be accepted.

And who cares about parking? IMO, if Charlotte really is the next big up an coming city in the US, then it should be able to support some units without parking (there are plenty of private lots and garages around that they can park in). Parking shouldn't even be required in Center City. Does anyone know what the ratio for parking spaces is for residential or commercial buildings in center city?

First part... Supply and Demand. If they built more units for the project, it wouldn't be what it is and probally won't have the same demand, in return, them having trouble selling more units.

2nd part... This is an innovative concept. They took a problem, in this case parking, had a bigger problem with the site they were on, and managed to find a solution.

[Spartan]

Right, and my point is that parking shouldnt be required, thus eliminating the problem to begin with.

[Andyc545]

Right, and my point is that parking shouldnt be required, thus eliminating the problem to begin with.

But they found a solution to the problem... they incorporated that into their design, made it one of their main selling points, and now can sell these condos for 1.7 to 5 million bucks. It's also an inspiration of design, hopefully one that will be adopted more by designs that are in similar "tight" situations. Along with the garage / car to your home concept, this gives added security and privacy to buyers. Also, if you own a 5 million dollar condo, you probally aren't driving a Honda either. If I had the money, I would want my Rolls Royce or Ferrari parked where I know its safe and close by. It would be unreasanable to ask someone with the money for a multimillion dollar condo to also give up one of their luxury's / necessities of a motor vehicle because it doesn't "need to be part of the project", or more realistically to what you're saying, have them leave it in a parking garage/public lot. Not only is this inconvenient for purchasers of this high of an echelon, it involves a great deal of safety and risk of the car getting damaged. The assurance is what can raise the price tag for these buyers, one that is attractive and innovative. I absolutely adore the design and the car concept all together.

[dubone]

They didn't really find a mass market solution, they found a solution that is expensive and can only be funded by multi-million dollar condos.

I agree with you Spartan that it is coming on the time when this should not be a factor. People living in uptown highrises in the middle class price point almost always have jobs uptown. One space per unit should be enough. Others can speak to the zoning requirements, but from an idealistic point of view, I agree that parking should not be something that is always needed to the level they have been doing.

I am still thinking that this project is fine. We have lots of other projects (like Novare's) that can bring in the middle class masses. It seems reasonable for a tight spot, which otherwise wouldn't have had anything substantial on it, to get the luxury tower. The city benefits from having a valuable project there, as the tax proceeds will help to fund the theater. But this site couldn't comfortably fit even minimal parking numbers without starting to need to use the top of the theater, which was a big problem for the theater supporters. Absent a market for parking-less condos, this is the best approach for this spot at this time. Jim Donnelly would know much more about this market than most anyone else, as he has the relationships with the people that wanted to buy at the Trust.

[1979Heel]

They didn't really find a mass market solution, they found a solution that is expensive and can only be funded by multi-million dollar condos.

I agree with you Spartan that it is coming on the time when this should not be a factor. People living in uptown highrises in the middle class price point almost always have jobs uptown. One space per unit should be enough. Others can speak to the zoning requirements, but from an idealistic point of view, I agree that parking should not be something that is always needed to the level they have been doing.

I am still thinking that this project is fine. We have lots of other projects (like Novare's) that can bring in the middle class masses. It seems reasonable for a tight spot, which otherwise wouldn't have had anything substantial on it, to get the luxury tower. The city benefits from having a valuable project there, as the tax proceeds will help to fund the theater. But this site couldn't comfortably fit even minimal parking numbers without starting to need to use the top of the theater, which was a big problem for the theater supporters. Absent a market for parking-less condos, this is the best approach for this spot at this time. Jim Donnelly would know much more about this market than most anyone else, as he has the relationships with the people that wanted to buy at the Trust.

Personally, I am thrilled that the Carolina Theater will be restored. This project looks like a smart and stylish way to do it. Charlotte isn't nearly big enough to have condo towers without parking. Even much more urbanized cities like San Francisco permit at least some parking in new condo towers.

We've waited 30 years for the Carolina to be restored and it seems like it's finally going to happen. This is great news; we have so few links to Charlotte's past.

Edited September 13, 2007 by 1979Heel

[Andyc545]

They didn't really find a mass market solution, they found a solution that is expensive and can only be funded by multi-million dollar condos.

I agree with you Spartan that it is coming on the time when this should not be a factor. People living in uptown highrises in the middle class price point almost always have jobs uptown. One space per unit should be enough. Others can speak to the zoning requirements, but from an idealistic point of view, I agree that parking should not be something that is always needed to the level they have been doing.

I am still thinking that this project is fine. We have lots of other projects (like Novare's) that can bring in the middle class masses. It seems reasonable for a tight spot, which otherwise wouldn't have had anything substantial on it, to get the luxury tower. The city benefits from having a valuable project there, as the tax proceeds will help to fund the theater. But this site couldn't comfortably fit even minimal parking numbers without starting to need to use the top of the theater, which was a big problem for the theater supporters. Absent a market for parking-less condos, this is the best approach for this spot at this time. Jim Donnelly would know much more about this market than most anyone else, as he has the relationships with the people that wanted to buy at the Trust.

I wasn't speaking out against middle class echelon price ranges... Believe me, when I read the state that over 25 percent of uptown mark is $500,000, my eyes lit up. It's unfair in a way, because there are a lot of people, such as my self, that want to live uptown and be a part of all of its features, but just can't afford it. Novare is doing their own thing, a good thing, by bring lower levels of condos in a skyscrapper to uptown, and by lower levels I mean 200's-300's. I was merely speaking out about Encore as the project it is. I hate seeing so many high market condos, but then again I welcome the construction, preservation, and inovations that builders are beginning to bring to uptown. I think the project is right (Encore), and for its location, a high-end market fits right (with BofA and Hearst). Plus there is still a demand for high market (somehow) due to all of the high paying jobs in Charlotte. I welcome more projects like Novare for the fact of having more affortable homes, but equally respect projects that are going to differentiate themselves from the norm. Encore's parking solution is something that will be used and respected by those that will make the purchase, and also will be "the talk around town" due to its uniqueness. The importance of this is that it's going to gain knowledge to the avg person out there, as well as set standards and make advancements in an ever changing world.

[uptownliving]

Right, and my point is that parking shouldnt be required, thus eliminating the problem to begin with.

The site this is being built on is zoned UMUD (Uptown Mixed Use District) which requires 1 space per unit. So for this building the required parking is 20 spaces...plus probably a couple for the restarant and office. The parking requirement can be met either on site...or offsite...so they could lease some parking spaces in an adjacent parking deck if they so wished to meet the requirements. If we retain the 1/2 Cent Sales Tax and our transit system continues to expand then I would agree with you and say that parking should not be required in the UMUD district just like it is not required in the TOD district.

[Charlotte_native]

First part... Supply and Demand. If they built more units for the project, it wouldn't be what it is and probally won't have the same demand, in return, them having trouble selling more units.

2nd part... This is an innovative concept. They took a problem, in this case parking, had a bigger problem with the site they were on, and managed to find a solution.

Parking, as we all know, wasn't the only issue to resolve though it was a large one. Restoring the theater was restrictive as well. The condos needed to be priced high enough to allow for not using that part of the site for new building and having money to chip in for the venue. It would have been far easier to tear down the theater and use the whole site so using these prices and the number of units are fine with me. I can't wait to see a show at the theater my family has told me about for years...

[Charlotte_native]

here is the Uptown article about the theater...

http://www.uptownclt.com/aug07_theater.html

[voyager12]

It's a shame they could not have had a mixture of affordable rentals and condos in the building. Theaters are meant to be places that bring together a mixture of people and are egalitarian in spirit. Oh well. Luxury is the priority in Uptown. Hopefully there really will be some reasonable places to live in Brookly Village. I am sure this renovation will be beautiful.

[Charlotte_native]

It's a shame they could not have had a mixture of affordable rentals and condos in the building. Theaters are meant to be places that bring together a mixture of people and are egalitarian in spirit. Oh well. Luxury is the priority in Uptown. Hopefully there really will be some reasonable places to live in Brookly Village. I am sure this renovation will be beautiful.

How would this pay for the millions to renovate the theater? Affordable rentals, though needed, could not accomplish that goal. It is easy to dismiss everything as *luxury rules* but there are often circumstances that surround a project that make lofty goals impossible.

Read through the thread, parking and restoration are the two guiding factors that have given us what we have -- I, for one, am delighted that the theater will not end up in the dump so a more *ideal* project takes place. Affordable rentals could go in many other places, the theater will likely cater to many groups and will still bring people together.

[turbocraig]

^^Why would you lump the theater and tower together in that regard? The theater's only involvement with Encore is the fact that it finally gets renovated in the deal. It won't be reserved exclusively for the people living there.

Edited September 13, 2007 by turbocraig

[voyager12]

I realize that. I thought it would be great idea for a mix of families of all backgrounds to live in close proximity to a theater from a cultural perspective.

Edited September 13, 2007 by voyager12

[UrbanFuture]

Define close proximity. Charlotte is one of the only places I've been which is considered a city where 6 blocks = too far to walk. In New York, Chicago, LA, DC, etc, I'd happily jump at the chance to live anywhere within 12 blocks of my desired cultural destination. Also, the light rail, (I feel like you can't say train in this city without fear of being struck by lightning) is able to deliver people from 10 miles out almost to the doorstep of the place as well as the upcoming Wachovia cultural complex, all of the existing museums, convention center, stadiums (current and future), Nascar Hall of Fame, etc etc etc. Assuming Charlotte will push through and build at least one or two more lines of the light rail then you have even more people, if they will take mass transit, that essentially live in close proximity of the cultural center. The residences that define or will help define a cultural landmark should be top tier, it adds to the value and the lifetime of the venue. Programming and events will attract whatever demographic it wishes in a downtown central business district that is becoming more and more accessible to people outside and on the outskirts of downtown.

Edited September 13, 2007 by QCkid

[1979Heel]

I'm not in favor of affordable-rate housing requirements. It seems to me that such requirements are merely a cheap, back-door way to avoid paying certain people (civic workers, teachers, others) what they are really worth. Nor am I in favor of requiring that certain income levels must live in close proximity to one another. There is a little evidence, not much, that having the poor live next door to the rich leads to better outcomes for the poor.

I recognize that few people will ever be able to afford a condo at Encore-I couldn't-and I'm ok with that. And if subsidies are granted for people only earning 25k annually, what about those at 50K? Or 150k? Encore buyers are likely well into 6 figures, maybe more in annual compensation. Where do we draw the line on subsidies?

I think we should pour money into education. We do a very poor job of funding it, including facilities, salaries, enabling opportunties for students.

Edited September 14, 2007 by Neo

[voyager12]

I am not going to go on this one into a rant on socioeconomic living patterns...I have learned my lesson The condos will be very nice and hopefully the theater can reclaim it's glory days. That's all folks. Good night.

[Myrtle]

Anyone going to Encore's big event/unveiling tonight @ their sales center? It should be incredibly informative. The parking/elevator concept is great (truly "luxury" as are the interior finishes), and I think that this product will sell well bc it fits a niche not found yet in all of Charlotte. Many condos are sitting that are affordable to the masses.

[tiblerbrit]

It was good planning on their part to have the open house before the One Charlotte open house. One Charlotte has to be kicking themselves for postponing theirs.

[Andyc545]

It was good planning on their part to have the open house before the One Charlotte open house. One Charlotte has to be kicking themselves for postponing theirs.

That's a good point. I wonder what kept One Charlotte from moving ahead on the original date, anyway. Big boo-boo. I may try and make it out tonight to the unvailing. I don't know if I'll be able to find a parking spot though...

[Charlotte_native]

I don't know if I'll be able to find a parking spot though...

Parking on the streets is free after 6:00 even in spaces not normally for parking! No excuses

I can't wait for this event, I'm really interested in this project.

As for One Charlotte -- they are shooting for the same market, those that can afford something like this in this price range, but these are two totally different buildings in style, amenities, feel, size and scope. Someone that wants a smaller building with fewer neighbors will want Encore, someone that wants to be in a larger building and attached to a high-end hotel will want One. I'm very interested in seeing how One Charlotte's sales go -- I hope through the roof, but I still think selling the lower level units will be difficult when the same money will buy you a rooftop unit at 300, TTT, The Vue, and others.

I think Encore will do just fine -- seeking only 24 buyers for very unique product isn't really asking TOO much.

[28202]

Valet parking my friend, look for the fancy cars.....

[Myrtle]

20 Buyers to be exact The Valet parking will be nice...Glad to know that more than just my co-workers and beloved boyfriend will be attending. I'll be sporting THE dress The event for Southhaus will just have to wait until later tonight.

[Andyc545]

20 Buyers to be exact The Valet parking will be nice...Glad to know that more than just my co-workers and beloved boyfriend will be attending. I'll be sporting THE dress The event for Southhaus will just have to wait until later tonight.

I may just go to SouthHaus, I don't think I would fit in with the crowd here or be looked seriously uppon for my age and purchasing a 2 million dollar condo, although I would loveee to go...

[Andyc545]

Well- apparently the Encore Sales Center thingy tonight was the place to be... I didn't actually go to it but I drove by and looked from a distance and well- I wouldn't be surprised if they sell out quickly. The market is certainly there for these condos. Valet Parking Lineup as I drive By: Aston Martin Vantash, Brand New FERRARI, Mercedes.... These people certainly will want their cars that are worth more than my lifetime salary housed in Encore's private garages... Cool to see the Ferrari, quite a happening place downtown- loud music, fun atmoshphere, lots of rich people for the event but a lot of regular people standing out looking in from a distance curious about what's going on. They had an RV, also, advertising for Encore... The Encore Moveable Sales Center, I think it was called, complete with New York lisense plates