"Severe" Drought

[Gard]

I am against Meeker's surcharge for water. Like Jones said, its like being punished for always doing right. I generally go along with Meeker on things, but this is certainly not one of them. What they should do is step up implementation of new water control software, etc. so they can do incremental billing. It should not take 18 months to implement that.

[Subway Scoundrel]

A possibility for Raleigh: no water, no new homes. Sounds about right to me. We have no business worrying about whether Tim Minton and the homebuilders can still make a profit if we barely have enough water left to drink.

[Jones_]

Until desalination becomes economically feasible this far inland, water is the limiting factor for how many people the land will support. The Desert just makes this reality clear a little more starkly

[Gard]

Until desalination becomes economically feasible this far inland, water is the limiting factor for how many people the land will support. The Desert just makes this reality clear a little more starkly

[ChiefJoJo]

Yes, but you either grow or die. You can not just stop growth. Too many people in that business and all it would have to do is hit the news and companies like NetJets will walk away and any other company looking at moving or expanding to Raleigh will go elsewhree. You think IBM, Cisco or Sony erricson will move a divsion here if there is a no growth mandate? Not to mention all the people that work in the construction business and real estate business. it is not just high power Developers. They hire a lot of people and not just lower paid construction workers. Keep the water restrictions and keep up the noise or do tiered costs but don't STOP growth or even mention stopping grown until you get under a month.

Slower growth maybe, but I think market forces are taking care of that with the real estate crunch. To just stop growth like I hear people say is economical suicide. It would change Raleigh from being a 3rd tier city to a 5th tier city competing in 2 years with Dayton, Oh and Columbia, MS for jobs instead of Austin, San Jose and even the bigger cities like Boston and Atlanta. Remember, no gowth should include no more condos DT, no more hotels DT and No L building, no Blount street Project and might as well stop that water sucking convention center. Not just housing subdivisions as that would be seen as targeting certain citizens who make up 95% of the city and Meeker would be run out of town.

I know that no water is even worse but slow the wagon down instead of pull the pin out of axle and let it crash.

[yoga]

I hate to bring up the elephant in the room, but the real bottom line is that there are too many people on the planet. Resources were limited even before we started reproducing like rabbits. We can slice & dice numbers and trends and molecules however we like but the fact is the Earth can only support so many consuming life forms.

The Visions of Science picture of the planet with isolated representation of water vs solid portions puts in into a different perspective from the usual frame of a 70%+ water composed [surface] Earth.

RE: population - am I saying we kill off mass quantities of people? no. am I saying people who have kids are bad people? no. I'm saying people should consider the physical resources around them that will ultimately be tapped by another person they may choose to produce. See also, VHEMT.

*rushes out of thread before I'm captured, tarred & feathered*

[Subway Scoundrel]

I hate to bring up the elephant in the room, but the real bottom line is that there are too many people on the planet. Resources were limited even before we started reproducing like rabbits. We can slice & dice numbers and trends and molecules however we like but the fact is the Earth can only support so many consuming life forms.

*rushes out of thread before I'm captured, tarred & feathered*

[Subway Scoundrel]

I'm not arguing for NO growth at all. Really, I was just tired of always having to listen to that imbicile spew his lies to us. The tone of the article was about how these new subdivisions have to use thousands of gallons to clean out their water lines before tapping into the city system ("The flushes can consume 10,000 to 15,000 gallons of water per development."). You say stopping growth means downtown too. Well, you don't have to waste 15,000 gallons to build RBC Plaza, L-bldg--just extend a few hundred feet of pipe (instead of miles) and tap into the line that's already there. On just about every growth issue, I am clearly for growth that requires fewer extensions of city services into the hinterlands of Wake, and for growing smarter while utilizing as much or our existing resources as possible, including water.

[RaleighRob]

I hate to bring up the elephant in the room, but the real bottom line is that there are too many people on the planet.

[ncwebguy]

I'm sure a fair number of the "stop all growth" crowd are "concerned" because they want to go back to their green yards and running the dish washer/clothes washer/faucet with wild abandon and not have to pay for it. And the afore mentioned "I can't easily get in and out of Crabtree any more" complaints.

The global population to water ratio is out of whack when the assumption is that all six billion people go through water at the rate the developed world uses it. Which luckily is not the case, but we can do a lot to reduce useage.

I think we can support a *reasonable* rate of growth. The problem with water, schools, roads, etc. is that a lot of people thought it would be a good idea to move to the Triangle and other parts of NC in the relatively short span of 10-20 years. Planning commissions were happy to approve anything to increase the tax base without checking to see if we can afford it in terms of money, infrastructure, and natural resources. Developing in an urban form helps with the first two and somewhat eases the pain of the third, which is why the slight increase in initial costs more than pays for itself over the long run.

[Gard]

Meeker wants to raise the level of Falls Lake to give Raleigh more drinking water:

http://www.newsobserver.com/front/story/877538.html

Like the article says though, it could take several years for the Federal-State study alone, so this is by no means a short-term fix.

[Jones_]

and of course it still needs to rain more . Just to put this out there in case it is seriously on anyones mind, digging the lake deeper is an utterly ridiculous idea...an N&O editor even took the time to write a piece on it....it is not just a matter of getting the dozers to push some dirt around or even environmental reviews that would take years...

[Gard]

Well its looking like the drought could have bad effects on the power grid...

Nuclear reactors across the Southeast could be forced to throttle back or temporarily shut down later this year because drought is drying up the rivers and lakes that supply power plants with the awesome amounts of cooling water they need to operate.

[dmccall]

We get 3X as much rain annually as Los Angeles. I don't think it is a matter of lifestyle, but rather a reservoir miscalculation. We were only off by about 20% on rainfall last year and the reservoirs are all dried up?

[orulz]

Los Angeles had to divert the entire flow of a river 238 miles away in order to sustain its water supply. I'd rather live with a few mandatory lifestyle changes with regards to lawn watering than carry out a ridiculously expensive and environmentally catastrophic project like that. No more keeping fescue lawns green through 90+ degree summer months? Not much of a sacrifice if you ask me. I forget exactly what percentage of our summer water usage went towards irrigation, but I seem to recall that it was embarrassingly high.

[RaleighRob]

^Exactly. Between rain barrels and treated wastewater (or stormwater even), there are plenty of non-potable water sources to use for outdoor plants, carwashing, etc.

[ChiefJoJo]

Raleigh City Councilman Thomas Crowder has a new proposal to enact a water impact fee, that would establish connection fees for new developments, rather than solely focus on conservation measures. I know that a lot of the push-back on the 50% surcharge that Meeker proposed was people saying 'don't charge me while we're adding thousands of new people to the system.' This proposal takes some of the burden off those people a la the development impact fee. IIRC, developers are not charged for flushing their pipes, nor are they charged a connection fee.

[Gard]

According to another article in the N&O, the Water Committee is asking city council to create exceptions to the stage 2 water rules, such as allowing the testing of new water connections for anyone that recaptures the water used in testing the new connection. IMO, that is a great middle-ground for us to both save water AND allow development to continue. It still baffles me that city council has not updated building codes as of yet to REQUIRE water-saving features in new buildings or ones undergoing major renovations. We are at the point that we should be looking for every way we can to stretch water supplies and with the amount of construction that goes on in Raleigh, such a requirement would certainly help slow the draining of our supply. I also believe that the city needs to greatly expand their "grey water" pipelines and require all new irrigation systems to be connected to them and not the drinking water supply. They could also require those irrigation systems that are near present grey water piplines and not connected to change their connection over to that.

http://www.newsobserver.com/weather/drough...ory/914462.html

[Jones_]

Its important to understand that "grey" water, called reuse water in the industry, does not help in drought situations because a reduced release at the wastewater treatment plant necessitates the need for continued higher releases from the resevoir for water quality and downstream users. What reuse water does do is allow for growth under normal conditions to be stretched beyond what Falls Lake could support without having reuse available. Having said that, Raleigh is currently sending a reuse line west from the Neuse River WWTP to several schools, Cargill and possibly Centennial Campus and beyond to replace heavy users of potable water for non-potable reasons. Also long term, the Wake Forest WWTP will be converted into a "Scapling" plant that has can produce reuse quality water and distribute it when its needed (more is supplied in the summer since thats when its needed). Such a plant usually loses its ability to discharge into the river.

[ChiefJoJo]

The city voted 8-0 to institute stage 2 restrictions today... no outdoor watering at all, etc.

I feel bad for the landscapers and the car wash owners who may have to shut down, but you gotta do what you gotta do... the 8-0 vote should tell you something too. Frankly, people in this country take fresh drinking water for granted, and it probably shouldn't be that way. Hopefully, the city will endorse permanent restrictions and tiered rates, so folks will be reminded that water is a scarce resource.

BTW, the city has a handy water calculator tool, so you can compute average your daily usage. The mayor initially called for an average use of 25 gal/day, but has since revised that to a target of 35. I'm at 24 gpd. Ahh, the benefits of urban living.

[dmccall]

Hopefully, the city will endorse permanent restrictions ...

[ChiefJoJo]

Care to expand on this? What types of restrictions?

[dmccall]

Incentives and tiered rates, I can live with. I'd like to add education to the list (Fescue needs 1" of rain per week during growing seasons, ideally in 3 doses to limit evaporative waste - not 3 hours every day. It also needs to be fertilized in early Sept., Thanksgiving, and Valentine's Day to promote hearty, less water dependent roots).

I cannot live with permanent restrictions on one's ability to maintain enormous investments. Cars NEED to be washed frequently. Acrid residue is costly. Mold is a big problem in Raleigh and HAS to be removed from walkways. This is a liability problem for visitors to a property. Limited toilet flushing is a health hazard.

I can understand limiting these services when supply is low. When water is abundant, there is no logical reason to limit reasonable water use. There needs to be more emphasis on increasing our capacity.

[Gard]

Meeker wants to put the city on a "water budget:"

http://www.newsobserver.com/weather/drough...ory/938588.html

There are also some tidbits on transportation and going "green" with traffic lights.

[JeffC]

Here is another idea whose time has come: simply outlaw new in-ground lawn irrigation systems that are connected to the city water supply. If you have that kind of money, you should be installing an underground cistern to catch your roof runoff and a water pump to water your @#$$% fescue.