President Bush's New Plan for Iraq

[WOT]

Just a quick thought to say that this post has had some extremely intelligent and civil expressions. Maybe we could get the candidates to take a peek inside to see how a debate and the arena of ideas should work. Does democracy have a chance after all?

Brillant work - very well thought out posts

[Charlotte_native]

Just to be clear: you're saying that Republicans have invented reports of Iranian arms and personnel encroaching into Iraq to train and supply insurgents? That our soldiers are not being killed by Iranian arms?

[Justadude]

Should we be surprised that one is responding to the cries for help from many of the other? Are the Iranians not doing the same thing we did with the Mujahadeen when Afgahnistan was invaded by the USSR? We weren't even related or neighbors. I feel it is less than patriotic and basically foolish to always assume your own motives are *good* but the motives of everyone else is *evil*. We appear to simply be unable to admit we screwed up and were wrong. Again, I want the violence to stop, but these people are doing what all people would do if in the same situation and their friends, family, neighbors were bombed, invaded, and occupied.

[Gusterfell]

If that were the case, Democrats in the Senate would be making diplomatic progress a top priority. Yet neither party has advanced any plan to "coordinate a multilateral stabilization" of Iraq, beyond empty rhetoric and big-picture speculation about somehow getting some countries together to help out with some stuff.

Yet we are seeing a very specific, detailed plan already in motion to cut off funding for the war, forcing Bush's hand on troop withdrawals in the immediate future. We see several candidates advancing specific withdrawal numbers on a specific timetable, which is not tied in any way to diplomatic progress. That tells you what the real "plan" is: win the 2008 election on an anti-war platform and figure out the details later.

Sounds an awful lot like the war-hysteria agenda advanced by the Republicans circa 2002, and we see how well that strategy turned out. Again, it's an anti-9/11 in progress in which the public is willing to buy blindly into sweeping promises that are not backed up by any specific plan for success.

[Charlotte_native]

Well supposedly, according to the paper this morning, we are opening talks with Iran to seek help in the region. Wow, diplomats using diplomacy. Too bad it took us this many years to realize the centuries old method of dealing with conflict should be used. I really hope this works. If we TRULY want stability in the middle east, talking to all, including enemies, is necessary. We didn't ignore the Soviets to make the USSR crumble -- we talked as much as reasonable and used calculated diplomacy. Fingers crossed this isn't an attempt to just appear willing to talk but not really willing to do anything.

[Justadude]

Until the Democrats take the White House, they have zero control over dipmomatic policy. Cutting funding to force a withdrawal is currently the only thing they can do to cause a change in direction. We can only hope that the State Department is competant enough to negotiate an international compromise during the withdrawal. I have my doubts about that, but whether or not it happens is 100% up to the White House. As long as they consider a withdrawal to be off the table, don't be surprised when there is little talk of diplomacy.

[tamias6]

US involvement in Iraq is causing allot of people to die. Withdrawing from Iraq is going to cause allot people to die. So ether way the US is up the creek without a panel. The US is also delusional if it thinks it can ever bring peace to the rest of the middle east via war making and/or diplomacy. Most of the great western nation-states of history have tried and failed to bring piece in the Middle east. The Romans, The Crusaders, France, the British Empire, and the Soviet Union have all marched into the Middle East and left with their tails tucked between their legs. But if that is not enough, read the Bible. It's filled with stories about violent wars and skirmishes among Middle Eastern Peoples. In short, there never has been nor ever will be peace in the middle east. US involvement in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East is bringing that to light. If the US wants a victory in Iraq and successful Middle Eastern policies, finding alternative energies to replace our need for oil is a must. This way we can withdraw from the Middle East and leave them to there own affairs.

[Justadude]

Hmmm... Iran has announced the production of a new type of missile, with a range capable of reaching Jerusalem and Europe.

Wonder why they would be working on long-range missile capabilities?

[Charlotte_native]

Hmmm... Iran has announced the production of a new type of missile, with a range capable of reaching Jerusalem and Europe.

Wonder why they would be working on long-range missile capabilities?

[Justadude]

^ In order to impose our will upon others. So it's fair to assume that Iran has the same intentions in mind.

[cinco]

^ sounds like we're all going to be kickin' ass and takin' names pretty soon...

humans are awesome.

[Raintree21]

This came out yesterday. Iraq announced, and the US confirmed, that they have invited the US military to stay in Iraw longterm after "hostilites" are over.

[Captain Worley]

Why do we?

[monsoon]

Bush funded an ongoing program to develop a more advanced nuclear bomb that will be attached to these missiles. (actually bombs/missile) There probably isn't any reason to go beyond the current technology in ballistic missiles since they can reach any point in the world.

[Charlotte_native]

^ In order to impose our will upon others. So it's fair to assume that Iran has the same intentions in mind.

[Captain Worley]

We certainly don't need more, we have plenty.

[Justadude]

Yet it is good when we have those intentions, but bad when others do.

Just pointing out the double standard, I'll state again for the record I am no fan of Iran.

[Gusterfell]

As I said earlier in the discussion, I have no illusions about "good" intentions on our part. From a moral point of view, we have no more right to advanced weaponry than the next country.

[Justadude]

So, if Iran is within its rights here, why is the US so indignant about its pursuing these technologies.

[Gusterfell]

Mostly correct, but Iran has never acted aggressively toward the US or its interests. The actions you describe were in direct response to specific actions taken by the US against Iran's national interest.

Iran is not "believed to be funneling personnel and weapons into Iraq." In fact, according to at least one of the top American generals in Iraq, Iran is doing much to reduce the bloodshed there.

Iran is one of the largest and most powerful nations in the Middle east. As such it is naturally a dominant power in the region. The US is an outside power which is seeking to dominate the region for our own economic interest. By doing so against the interest of Iran, of course we have made an enemy of them. However, we are the aggressors in the situation. It is we, not they, who are in the wrong here. The word "neoconservative" may not have been around, but the agenda of dominating the Middle East and its oil reserves goes back to the Reagan administration, nearly thirty years ago.

[Justadude]

^ I strongly disagree with the notion that Iran has never acted against the USA, but from the looks of things we are drawing our information from different sources and arguing about it will probably go nowhere.

To come a little closer back to the topic, I think it's fair to say that if we evacuate Iraq without a very clearly defined handover of power to a stable, independent Iraqi government (which is something that NO current candidate has indicated they will be able to achieve, and for which NO current plan exists in spite of the calendar-based withdrawal strategy) then a power vacuum will exist. As has occurred in so many of our other foreign expeditions, that vacuum will be filled by the biggest gorilla in the room... in this case that is Iran, which is being pretty overt in pursuing long-range nuclear weapons capabilities.

If we leave, and Iranian interests move in (regardless of whether it is an actual invasion or covert ops) we will have basically guaranteed three things: 1) Whoever is not the ethnic "flavor of the month" is going to get slaughtered 2) We will have spent 5 years providing infrastructure for a clearly-defined anti-USA agenda 3) We will be back in the region within our lifetimes to break up the Israeli-Arab war that will inevitably occur as a result of our failure to provide stability in the Gulf area.

This isn't about "right" or "wrong"; it's about strategic planning for our best interests. Nobody is a big fan of the war right now, but that shouldn't blind us to the consequences of withdrawal. Unless a very specific, detailed, goal-based plan is advanced by SOMEBODY on Capitol Hill, we are going to continue to operate on blind principle and will continue to reap the bloody results. I hate to think that, after all this country has been through with this issue, we would continue to go down the same disasterous path we've been on for half a decade.

[monsoon]

^The exact same arguments were made a generation ago when Congress cut off funding and forced the pull out of the United States from Vietnam in 1975. Just change the name from Iran/Terrorists to Soviet Union/Communists. None of it came true, but it was a argument that was used to drag on the military operations there for years longer than need be. Now Vietnam is our friend and the communists manufacture almost everything we need and loan us money to live out unsustainable lifestyles.

The sad fact of the matter is that Americans don't learn or head the lessons of history and we are repeating the same mistakes that we made back then. That is endless military occupation with no clear goals, trillions of dollars wasted, and death and destruction passed around to both sides. If we pull out of Iraq, everything will be fine as the Iraqis will sort it out themselves. It is not up to us to decide it for them but as these kinds of arguments go, this is exactly what we are doing.

[nowensone]

^ Not to argue against what you are saying (because there is much truth in it), but there is a large difference between the Vietnamese people/culture and those of Iran. While very different on the face, there is a more natural affinity between American and "oriental" cultures than those found in many Middle Eastern/North African countries. Despite the intentions of common people everywhere to live in peace and harmony, certainly true of Iran and anywhere else, it's country and culture is not going to be harmonious to ours now or even in 40 years.

[Justadude]

^ Beat me to the punch. "Domino theory" as applied to Communism was one thing. Being aware of impending genocide in the Middle East is something quite different. I am not saying we should endlessly occupy Iraq; but to pull out and leave the country in shambles is inviting disaster. It's easy to be cavalier about having warring ethnic groups "sort it out themselves" from a distance, but the end-game of civil war and uncontrolled bloodshed is becoming more tangible with each candidate that says they want to pull troops out of Iraq with no specific concept of how the country will be controlled in the absence of coalition troops.

No goals, trillions of dollars wasted, death and destruction... that is the current plan and so far the only plan on the table. It is very clear that neither Republicans nor Democrats are seriously interested in stabilizing Iraq; the whole issue has become a political football and is being treated with talking points instead of focused military strategy. It's Rwanda all over again, except this time we bear the moral responsibility of having touched off the conflict.

[monsoon]

^ While very different on the face, there is a more natural affinity between American and "oriental" cultures than those found in many Middle Eastern/North African countries. Despite the intentions of common people everywhere to live in peace and harmony, certainly true of Iran and anywhere else, it's country and culture is not going to be harmonious to ours now or even in 40 years.