Holly Park Shopping Center Redux

[ChiefJoJo]

I can't believe they didn't do an inverted SPUI when they replaced that Beltline bridge. This diamond thing really doesn't work with the traffic load there.

[dmccall]

Well, obviously ped and bike movement never entered the design criteria for the interchange. Is it more expensive if traffic problems are so bad that you have to redo in the interchange within 10 years?

I understand the balance issue, but from my observations, there are two major left turn moves made. The most major is I440 Inner to outbound WF. Secondary is outbound WF to outer 400. The inbound WF to inner 440 is also a move that cannot be ignored. I think an inverted SPUI here makes a heck of a lot more sense than it does at Durham Freeway near Duke Hospital and at 40 and Southpoint (does anyone really go from 40E to inbound Fayetteville Rd?)

[cthayes75]

Your giving the city and Trader Joe's WAYYYYY too much credit. There is absolutely no way that the city would have the wherewithall to react and respond with this decisive an action, and there's no way that Trader Joe's is a big enough deal to warrant this kind of a response.

[ncwebguy]

I've been through the first single point urban interchange in Clearwater FL, which has the traffic signal under the bridge of the major road, as this one would require. It takes a *lot* of space underneath to get the "primary road" traffic to the middle of the interchange. If the interchange wasn't so "landlocked" by hotels to the west and Melting Pot to the SE, it might be reconfigurable. But with most/all of the "easy to play with" land to the south of 440, the current plan is the most cost effective.

Does anyone know if Holly Park get a new name or not? There isn't much, if any, recognition or even signage. It will be nice to see Trader Joe's come on line and hopefully spur redevlopment interest in the Alcatel site. Maybe Chreokee could help with any contamination/brownfield issues? A somewhat cohesive area from 440/Wake Forest through Wake Forest/Six Forks, at least on the east side, would be nice. Crossing the Wake Forest/Six Forks to North Hills gap will be difficult due to the development patterns already entrenched in the area, but could be filled in over time, especially if North Hills East takes off.

[dmccall]

As far as space goes, the Durham inverted SPUI goes from being 240' wide (including exit ramps) to flaring to 333' feet at the intersection proper.

Raleigh's I-440/Wake Forest Rd. interchange flares to 413' (sidewalk corner to sidewalk corner). The white line to white line width of the freeway in Durham is 100' while 440 appears to be just 5' wider.

Google Maps of the intersections:

• Durham SPUI

• Wake Forest Rd/I-440

[Jones_]

I have a novel idea for improving the interchange...connect Bush Street to Industrial Drive under the beltline. Maybe even Wake Towne to Industrial as well.

[dmccall]

Actually connecting Anderson Drive through to Quail Hollow Drive would be a huge improvement, too.

[Jones_]

I was looking at a google map trying to figure out a good Quail Hollow connection. That would definitely be a good mid-volume north-south connection.

[dmccall]

I have an article coming soon about a redeveloped midtown area, and one key element is this connector. It requires removing the Oakland and Cheswick Dr. area. Here's the map of it:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&...4de1cb5b43b7cfc

An easier plan is to connect Barrett across, but there isn't any continuity beyond Six Forks, so it really wouldn't relieve much pressure on Six Forks.

[orulz]

I really wish the city budget for doing these sort of interconnections, but the truth is, they don't. This could be perhaps viewed as a negative consequence of North Carolina's liberal annexation law. While it allowed the city itself to keep growing and avoid stagnation or decline during the 1960s-1990s, but now we're stuck with a lot of low density, far-flung suburban areas within the city limits that pay city taxes and want their roads upgraded, diluting the potential effectiveness of any transportation improvement money that the city might be able to put up. So instead of streetscaping and burying power lines downtown, or constructing better connectivity across Capital Blvd and the Beltline, we're stuck spending the lion's share of our road money on projects like widening Tryon uand Six Forks, and extending New Falls of Neuse Road.

[ncwebguy]

There is a Holly Park sign, but it is a non-descript green and white listing of every buisness in the complex.

Construction is underdway for a row of buildings facing north along the south/Alcatel property line, which will form an inverted U, with a driveway to more parking behind the existing upside-down L.

Wake Forest Road carries a lot more traffic on its 5-6 through the intersection compared to Hillandale/Durham Freeway's four, to say nothing of the necessary turn lanes. WF/440 has the small problem of its bridge suppored by columns between north and southbound traffic, creating a lot of unusable space in They would all need to be eliminated, requiring a new bridge and the associated land closures, etc.

Google's streetview shows a sidewalk on the west side of Wake Forest, but not the east. There seems to be a lot more potential for pedestrian traffic on the west side en route to Kroger, but there is never a safe time to cross by foot. The next closest 440 "crossings" are Six Forks and the train tracks parallel to Atlantic.

When 540 was built, no roads were designated as a connector to move traffic from it to 440 and ITB. Roads burdened with their own existing traffic have to carry that additional traffic created by the "convenience" of 540. Coupled with the lack of decent mass transit (which extends and expands easier than roads), continuous edge growth increases costs a lot more than the tax base it creates. As Orulz pointed out, these costs come at the exclusion of improving existing areas despite higher taxes paid by those residents.

[Jones_]

I have an article coming soon about a redeveloped midtown area, and one key element is this connector. It requires removing the Oakland and Cheswick Dr. area. Here's the map of it:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&...4de1cb5b43b7cfc

An easier plan is to connect Barrett across, but there isn't any continuity beyond Six Forks, so it really wouldn't relieve much pressure on Six Forks.

[Subway Scoundrel]

NIMBY ALERT !!! NIMBY ALERT !!!!!!!!!!! NIMBY ENTERING CONVERSATION !!!!!!!!

As a person who lives very near (I mean very near) , I don't support opening up Quail Hollow. I can see Anderson Drive opened to St. Albans but I would say use St. Albans as the release to North Hills and the back entrance to North Hills from Drewey Hills if you did open up Anderson but if you open QH to this, it will open that area to too much cross town traffic. Hardimont is already the speed center for everyone. Keep that crosstown traffic on St. Albans mgoinhg east/west and to NHs since it is not residential or if going north, drive to 6 Forks and Wake Forest/FoNuese to get to Millbrook road. I say do all you can to keep people on St. Albans and out of the Eastgate/Quail Hollow. It is a residential street.

[phoenixnc]

Why not extend Quail Hollow to St. Albans anyway? If it was extended over/under the Beltline, it would have to take out a neighborhood and it sounds like a very expensive job. I am all for connectivity and I have several examples that make me mad about problems, but this may be taking that too far.

[Gard]

^^^

What Subway said...

Hardimont is bad enough. I go through this area to go to NH (down Hardimont, right on Converse, left on Darmouth) and all I can say is while the neighborhood is old, its one of my favorite and quiet, minus those few like myself (I follow the speed limit on my way through) that use it as a shortcut. I'd hate to see road connections that destroy the great neighborhood back there.

[Jones_]

I definitely NIMBY in favor of my own 'hood, but just want to say, that the lack of connectivity around Holly Park is part of why the interchange is so bad. I could Anderson/Quail Hollow my way to Falls Tap Room(central to my Soccer team's drinkin' nights) but am forced into the Wake Forest 440 gauntlet. I guess thats why I live downtown though.

[dmccall]

If we had great connectivity, then no one street would be that bad. Glen Eden Drive and North Hills Drive are examples of wide streets with some traffic that make all of the area streets easier to live on. Yadkin Drive is the same way. This kind of thinking is why North Raleigh traffic is so much worse than ITB, and frankly, why there is such a disparity with property values.

If you don't want much traffic, don't live on a street that is 50 feet wide.

[ncwebguy]

I've never used Hardimount out of respect for that 'hood.

Though I can see why other people do... New Hope Church is the only direct connector from points east of Capitol to get to points west of Wake Forest/FoN from the Capitol/Wake Forest/Atlantic "interchange" to Millbrook. Hodges/Yonkers comes close, but east of Capitol there is only to a string of warehouses).

To make a move from Six Forks to Wake Forest/FoN, I'll take Six Forks to WF, St. Albans, or Millbrook, depending on my start and end points. People that live ITB near Anderson and OTB near Quail Hollow moved there knowing that "you can't get there from here" from north of St. Albans to south of ITB Six Forks.

The most "bang for the buck" to help the Six Forks/Wake Forest area would be to have more housing stock and/or improve the existing apartment complexes from near the intersection to Whitaker Mill. The area was passes over/left for greener pastures in the then-edge sprawl in the 80s and 90s along the corridors outside the beltline towards what is now 540.

The sprawl that made revitalizing Holly Park and other nearby shopping centers due to "cheap gas" and a weak city council approving everything and anything is only now being counterd by higher gas prices and more people's desire to want to be somewhat closer to the center city. I thought the "south midtown" area was improving when Hannafords, Kroger, Staples, Borders, etc. opened within a few years of each other about 10 years ago... hopefully the new North Hills and Holly Park improvements will leave a more lasting change for the better.

[ChiefJoJo]

I have an article coming soon about a redeveloped midtown area, and one key element is this connector. It requires removing the Oakland and Cheswick Dr. area. Here's the map of it:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&...4de1cb5b43b7cfc

An easier plan is to connect Barrett across, but there isn't any continuity beyond Six Forks, so it really wouldn't relieve much pressure on Six Forks.

[JeffC]

As an update, the old Baptist Book Store (which was a paint store more recently) was demolished last week. Fronts have been ripped off all the stores in the strip, and the framework for new fronts is going in. Melting Pot is staying open, despite the fact it is currently coccooned in the shell of a new building.

[JeffC]

in case you missed it, here is an update on the shopping center redevelopment from the Nov. 5 N&O

[NCMike1981]

it's coming along quite nicely!

[JeffC]

the Trader Joe's at this shopping center is delayed but not cancelled, according to this column by N&O retail reporter Sue Stock last week...I had thought the TJs was going in the old World Gym location (which is still vacant) until I saw this column, which has location as new construction along Wake Forest Road on the site of the old Baptist Bookstore.

[dmccall]

You missed my post on August 17. There is a map of the center's plan.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/08/17/holl...ings-available/

[JeffC]

Boy, did these new owners pick a bad time to overhaul and expand their shopping center. The renovation of the existing building and the expansion on the right side is complete now, but no new tenants at all in the new spaces or the vacant World's Gym space. Even worse, absolutely no signs of activity at the site of the future Trader Joe's. Not only are they not going to make a spring 2009 opening, they might not even make a 2009 opening...