More corruption under Perez

[Leo Berman]

Obsolete in a few years? It's obsolete now. Also, nobody ever said Hartford proper would have to handle the heavy lifting financially, the State would also have to be involved, and, as already stated here, Northland stated it's starting point, one would have to assume they'd kick in a much more significant portion. And, jcrc, you are assuming that people would only come to see hockey games. A new revenue stream for UConn men's and women's basketball would be established, with the huge potential of a possible NHL team. I know JoJo's wasn't around during the Whalers, but I'm assuming you have been, and the difference in Hartford between Wolf Pack games and Whalers games is huge. Even if thew saying is true that Arenas draw money that would be spent elsewhere to the Stadium, that would be a boon for Hartford. All those people that would be spending their money at Evergreen Walk or Blueback Square could potentially be spending it downtown prior to an NHL game (when they would've skipped the Wold Pack). City's like Kansas City can build an arena with no set tenant, then so can Hartford (and we do have tenants in the Wolf Pack and UConn).

[jcrc]

Obsolete in a few years? It's obsolete now. Also, nobody ever said Hartford proper would have to handle the heavy lifting financially, the State would also have to be involved, and, as already stated here, Northland stated it's starting point, one would have to assume they'd kick in a much more significant portion. And, jcrc, you are assuming that people would only come to see hockey games. A new revenue stream for UConn men's and women's basketball would be established, with the huge potential of a possible NHL team. I know JoJo's wasn't around during the Whalers, but I'm assuming you have been, and the difference in Hartford between Wolf Pack games and Whalers games is huge. Even if thew saying is true that Arenas draw money that would be spent elsewhere to the Stadium, that would be a boon for Hartford. All those people that would be spending their money at Evergreen Walk or Blueback Square could potentially be spending it downtown prior to an NHL game (when they would've skipped the Wold Pack). City's like Kansas City can build an arena with no set tenant, then so can Hartford (and we do have tenants in the Wolf Pack and UConn).

[beerbeer]

The amount of money poured into Fenway Park could have built an arena. They have been adding to and rebuilding that structure continually for 20 years. Besides, Fenway is a shrine, not really comparable to the obsolete structure on Trumbull.

A new arena needs to seat closer to 20,000 to be able to accommodate a women's final four, NBA exhibitions, and yes, the NHL. Not to mention bigger and better entertainment shows. Right now, the facility is second class.

The same people who want to keep the current HCC are the same ones who didn't want to build a CC in the first place. They didn't want to spend money on the the first HCC.

That building has more than paid for itself, can anyone imagine what life in the city, the region and the state would have been like without it? But now it costs to much to replace -- could folks possibly be more short sighted?

[drc72]

A different perspective on things:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/sports_stadiums...60gvRxkMbADW7oF

[Lowerdeck]

A new arena needs to seat closer to 20,000 to be able to accommodate a women's final four, NBA exhibitions, and yes, the NHL. Not to mention bigger and better entertainment shows. Right now, the facility is second class.

[MadVlad]

To say the building should be replaced because it requires expensive maintenance is like saying Fenway Park should be torn down simply because it is old. All the proponents cannot fully address the concern that NHL itself does not show a least bit of interest in Hartford.

[jcrc]

What is the odd of NHL returning to Hartford if there is a new arena?

[HartfordTycoon]

What is the odd of NHL returning to Hartford if there is a new arena?

[MadVlad]

I do know the odds of getting an NHL team if we have no new arena: ZERO

[blackstone]

The amount of money poured into Fenway Park could have built an arena. They have been adding to and rebuilding that structure continually for 20 years. Besides, Fenway is a shrine, not really comparable to the obsolete structure on Trumbull.

A new arena needs to seat closer to 20,000 to be able to accommodate a women's final four, NBA exhibitions, and yes, the NHL. Not to mention bigger and better entertainment shows. Right now, the facility is second class.

The same people who want to keep the current HCC are the same ones who didn't want to build a CC in the first place. They didn't want to spend money on the the first HCC.

That building has more than paid for itself, can anyone imagine what life in the city, the region and the state would have been like without it? But now it costs to much to replace -- could folks possibly be more short sighted?

[drc72]

What is the odd of NHL returning to Hartford if there is a new arena?

[jcrc]

Better than if we don't have one. That's for sure. To me the question is this: Do people in CT want state of the art, nice new things like people have all over the country in similarly dense and populated regions, or do we want to be second rate when it comes to everything? I for one want to be on the cutting edge of everything and know that our state is rich enough to be there if the political will existed. But it's not so we languish in many areas. If we would have built one back then instead of thinking small and settling for mediocrity the NHL would never have left. This is why CT continues to lose young people and business opportunities. The blah attitudes of everyone about everything in this state is enough to drive anyone out.

[beerbeer]

A state of the art arena is an amenity that the one of the 30 largest metro area in America needs to have. It is something the city needs to compete economically and socially with other metros of similar size.

[The Voice of Reason]

I am a supporter of cities assisting in funding professional sports. Not a blind or ignorant one however.

I was fairly disgusted with NYC over this issue when they lost the opportunity to bring both the Jets and the Giants to the west side rail yards. Sure this subsidy would have been fairly huge, but in this case it would have brought two seperate companies with $Billion+ values, and huge revenues to new york state and NY city. This is why both the state and city would help pay.

There are so many things to take into account when public funding comes into play.

there is the economic benefit for sure.

there is actually a palpable status or esteem as well

there are emotions (team love)

there are neighbourhood revival issues as well.

If an arena deal is done right it will be associated with bringing a major corporation or 2 to the area(the NHL/NBA franchise)

this actually raises property tax base and brings people to that neighbourhood and helps local businesses on game night. helps create an identity for an area. it helps identify a city as well. "hartford is the home of the Whalers" or Hartford is a city between Boston and NY.

For Hartford

Building an arena without an NHL team in place is bad business.

In order to see any actual improvement in Hartford we would need the added draw of a Pro team. Releasing 15k consumers into the streets on game days rather than say 3-4k for minor league. The businesses able to support themselves with these new customers would make the downtown more attractive place to live. This raises demand for downtown living options and thus more business for local businesses.

A redeveloped arena would likely entail the reorganization of the block, and the location of parking. This is likely one way AEG Northland would get some city funds from the parking authority. I am sure they would put more signifigant parking into the downtown area, and closer to City place and the BOAmerica buildings(that have no real parking) and help them lure(avoid loosing) tenants. Also I think the new arena would have to have a more friendly Facade, especially facing Ann street. lastly I am sure it would include another tower integrated into it much like H21 is not to further take advantage of the acrege. Do not forget the church street garage is part of the HCC land.

NHL teams currently are worth 200-250 million each, and have an anual salary of $44 million.

That is about the same as a company with 500 employees.

I think all of the 2ndary financial benefits that go with a pro team really start to add up, and the net affect is that of much more than a 500 employee company. how many 500 employee companys entertain, bring joy, conversation around the water cooler, and heartache to say half the metro population? How many 500 employee companies bring 15-18k of their friends into downdown for dinner and drinks 42 times a year? how many 500 employee companies help to give identity and pride to a city,a state and a region?

So the question remains how much do we as a city/state invest?

The arena would likely cost about what Pens are paying for theirs 290 million

and have features like the $200M Toyota center even though its design is not particularly pedestrian friendly.

The Toyota Center can seat 18,300 for basketball (10,063 for WNBA games), 17,800 for hockey, and up to 19,000 for concerts. It has 2,900 club seats and 103 luxury suites. There are over 10,000 parking spaces within a few blocks of the facility, including the 2,500-space Toyota Tundra garage connected to the arena via private skybridge.

Heck, I am a wild man and say that Northland plans a $3-400 Million arena/entertainment district with rearanged parking and such as I said and another residential tower. So what is normal in public funding?

well that depends. But 50-50 usually will get a bond issue passed. If Northland-AEG can get the city/state to pony up a 200 million dollar bond I think we could get a drastic improvement to downtown. $200M is nothing compared to what the convention center science center etc cost the tax payers, and the Arena would show much better returns to the taxpayers than the science center will. Now will AEG-Northland pony up 200+M to get this built? You have to figure that Northland wll have to first shell out $250M for a team. AEG is in the Arena business and already have a hockey team. So they would likely be more into setting up the arena side of things, while Northland would be more involved in a redidential tower and retail space.

current construction bonds are paying

Hartford has an A+ rating as best I can tell, and on a 30 year note that would put the rate at 4.55% or 9.1 Million annually

figure AEG-Northland could get 5% and pay 10M anually while Northland alone would have to finance the Hockey team and likely pay a higher rate and on more debt.

Sure its more complicated than all of that, but Im just throwing out the basics. The city and state sharing 10M a year would be a good deal in my opiion, but what I do not see is Northland footing their side of the bill as they would have the largest stake. I would see something more like a 60/40 or even 75/25 on the Arena with all of the additional development covered by AEG Northland with AEG controlling the building. Northland would mostly just secure the team to add value to the broject and secure the funding from city/state.

ok I have eddited this likely too much now.. blah

reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Center_(Houston)

[HartfordTycoon]

OK, it's about time to start a new thread to discuss this. However, I will pose this question here for now. Who thinks we will eventually need a new arena within the next decade or so, NHL or not? Who thinks the Civic Center will last another 10 plus years or so in the case that we don't lure pro sports and will still even be suitable for UConn? I'm just curious.

[jcrc]

A state of the art arena is an amenity that the one of the 30 largest metro area in America needs to have. It is something the city needs to compete economically and socially with other metros of similar size.

[MadVlad]

So even without an anchoring sporting franchise we should still have a state of the art arena? For one thing Hartford does not compete with other metros of similar size, Hartford lives under the shadow of Boston and New York, just like all other New England cities. The arena should serve regional and mid market needs without any illusion of national aspiration simply because we can't compete with Boston and New York. A much better model is the 14,500 seat Dunkin' Donuts Center of Providence. According to wikipedia, Providence rank 35 vs. Hartford's 44 in term of population in a metropolitan area. As we all know, economically speaking, Providence is well ahead of Harford, yet they are only renovating their existing facility to a tune of $62 million, not building a new one at a cost of $400 million of which Northland is only offering $25 of their own money. If Whalers is still here, I would say fine, lets appease them and give them a big new arena and HOPE they don't screw us. But they are not here anymore. It would truly suck if we build it and only to have NHL tell us to stick with Wolfpacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_Unit...atistical_Areas

[Lowerdeck]

Last night, I was at the ancient Matthews Arena in Boston. It predates the old Boston Garden. It seats a few thousand, the balcony is right on top of the lower level, so there's plenty of bad views on both levels. But well, here's an arena that's been around since 1910. Currently it's used by Northeastern Univ. only.

Why do I see the HCC one day becoming something similar... mostly used by UConn as their basketball arena and for other campus events?

[ctman]

Last night, I was at the ancient Matthews Arena in Boston. It predates the old Boston Garden. It seats a few thousand, the balcony is right on top of the lower level, so there's plenty of bad views on both levels. But well, here's an arena that's been around since 1910. Currently it's used by Northeastern Univ. only.

Why do I see the HCC one day becoming something similar... mostly used by UConn as their basketball arena and for other campus events?

[blackstone]

Don't you guys want to be pretty certain before paying for one? Better than if we don't have one could mean 1% is better than 0%. If we have a new arena and no NHL, would you guys consider that a worthwhile investment, or money pissed away? From all that I have read I would say with a new state of the art 16,000+ seat arena that Northland wants to build the odd of NHL returning to Hartford is less than 20%. Again what do you guys think the odd is?

[The Voice of Reason]

The Hartford CC is without a doubt outdated. I was actually kind of shocked when I first saw the inside last July 29th. (I am new to the region) But I was amazed how small it seemed in that building. I have to say that the recent decorations in the lobby that AEG-Northland just added last week go A LONG WAY towards sprucing it up, but the arena is definately not "professional"

If the city were to put 60-70 million into the building it would still be far outdated. From my recolection of the few URI and P-Bruins games I went to at the Dunk the arena is larger inside. There is more to work with so to speak. The HCC needs to be opened up, made more comfortable, honestly any money spent on major repairs would be wasted. The entire seating bowl would need to be redesigned and there is not enough of a cost benefit. Without an NHL team I do not see anything being done to the building. I sure hope not anyways. If they can set up a deal that would allow for a new arena if Northland can secure a team it makes sense, some sense anyways.

As for the present however, what we have is exactly what we need. I think Northland-AEGs suggestion that they will have a plan in place at the end of their management contract is likely accurate however. I think AEG needs more venues in New England, so they need to keep the CC and Rentschler. They know that they can help Northland get a team (They are an NHL team owner and get a vote). and Northland has all kinds of nocal respect frrom politicians.

But if there is a new arena in 10 years it would only be with an NHL team.

[jcrc]

Of course it competes with similar markets, New York and Boston is a smoke screen used by small minded people that want Hartford to adopt a small town mentality. By the way, Hartford is ranked 29th for media markets, which is more important to things like sporting events than metro area. It is also the largest media market without a pro sports franchise of its own. I'm also not seeing how Providence is well ahead of Hartford economically, we have a higher GDP, and more wealth per capita. I'd rather compare us to similar sized cities like Columbus, Kansas City, and San Antonio, all of which are forward thinking and preparing to meet competition head on, not convene 50 studies to see if an obsolete arena is really obsolete, which it obviously is.

And as far as the chances of us getting a team with a new arena, I'd give it a 50/50 shot. And, like I said, without a new arena, there is a 0% chance. Not a 1% chance, a ZERO% chance. As a business owner downtown, I'd assume you'd like the city to take it's shot on getting 18k people downtown 41 times a year instead of 4k 36 times a year. Ask the owner of Chuck's Steakhouse and the guy that owned the Russian Lady and Lord Jim's what the difference was.

[MadVlad]

I'm not seeing why money for a new arena has to preclude money for more residential.

[The Voice of Reason]

I am sure it does not preclude it, but the fact of the matter is that the city is not rich. The city is actually working with a very limited tax base, so choosing "smart investments" would be wise for Hartford.

If the City had to cough up 200 Million to secure an arena, they could have concievably invested 50M each into encouraging private developers to build 4 condo towers. I am not sure there is demand for them, but I think thats kind of along the lines JCRC is going.

If the city invested simular funds would the city be healthier?

At this point, at the cusp of 2008 I would say we need more condos downtown, and we need to build some infill on those vacant lots. Now if 200M were available that is sadly it is not. I think an Arena would be an easier sell if there were another few thousand people living downtown, and I think an Arena and an NHL team would help sell a great number of those condos as well. Nothing in this environment is an easy choice. But I would say the Arena should be something on the 2012 Budget, and the 4 years in the mean time should be spent bring people to live downtown and take advantage of the new Science center and all of the other major capitol projects we have seen lately.

[MadVlad]

I have never said the City should pay for the Arena. I feel the State needs to absorb as much as they can, Hartford should be its crown jewel.