Perception of crime and the

[Rizzo]

it's always interesting to hear what the suburbanites have to say. they are afraid because of the diversity in race, belief systems, sexual preferences, etc in the urban areas. same goes for why they are leaving grps.

in regards to cpc, they are great because they are the basis for the grass roots efforts of neighborhoods to solve their problems. i understand that heritage hill has really solid cp efforts.

[NorthCoast]

it's always interesting to hear what the suburbanites have to say. they are afraid because of the diversity in race, belief systems, sexual preferences, etc in the urban areas. same goes for why they are leaving grps.

in regards to cpc, they are great because they are the basis for the grass roots efforts of neighborhoods to solve their problems. i understand that heritage hill has really solid cp efforts.

[GR Jackson]

Political opinions really have nothing to do with this. Rizzo is right, for families there are 2 main issues when re-locating...quality of schools and safety. Unfortunately statistics and data don't tend to favor GR when in comparison to some of its surrounding suburbs. And we won't even get into the issue of school vouchers because thats a whole other can of worms.

[concretepoem]

This past weekend while selling tickets for the Heritage Hill Home Tour a woman from East Grand Rapids mentioned that she is not comfortable coming into

[Allison Slater]

Can they not put a field office there anyways? If it's enough of a threat, I don't see why they couldn't.

[Mark Miller]

It is tough to compare EGR and GR in regards to crime. Their comparitive sizes in both population and land area make it an unfair comparison. EGR has crime, but it is primarily petty type stuff, like stealing bikes from garages and driveways. And while GR has this petty stuff, it also has more violent crime, albeit in a fairly consistent pattern of neighborhoods within the city.

It is less likely that the violent crime occurs in places like Heritage Hill. This may be due to the fact that the HHA is vigilant in regards to informing the neighborhood residents of everything that happens in weekly email blasts. It also is partially due to the vigilance of the people who live in the neighborhood. We talk to our neighbors, we watch out for our neighbors, we keep an eye on the streets for any activity that is irregular. When we had a bike stolen from our property earlier this year, the police came with the forensic unit and after they left, many neighbors came over to find out what was going on.

This may be considered nosy by some, but when living in an urban area, you need to be cognizant of what is going on around you - you can not sleep walk through life the way people do in the burbs. As a resident of an urban area you need to be proactive in the neighborhood, you have to know your neighbors and actually talk to them. This interaction and maintained presence is essential to take back the streets.

Of course the police presence is also critical. I think many of Dolan's ideas were good. Decentralizing the police. Having a neighborhood presence - particularly in more at risk areas and more foot patrols. In fact, I believe that we need to have more foot patrols within all the neighborhoods. Having more interaction with officers, the kind of interaction that does not occur from a squad car, is critical. This, I believe is lacking currently.

Of course, as someone mentioned earlier, spilled blood is news. So when someone is gunned down on the SE side - and it is reported that way - the entire SE side becomes stigmitized - especially from people living in the far flung isolation of the burbs. What they do not realize is that the SE side is bigger than EGR, and made up of some vastly different neighborhoods with different levels of community involvement. In fact, as police precincts go, southern HH is not even part of the SE side, it is patrolled from officers serving the NE end, even though immediately to the east is considered the SE precinct.

A case in point about news reporting, is that the recent reporting of the cold case murders that were reported as the "Heritage Hill murders" NEVER even occurred in the Hill.

In a nutshell, we once again have to deal with people who are misinformed about our city. Whether it be crime or parking or whatever the hot topic of the day is. The city is not the suburb, and it can not be interacted with, lived in or visited, in the same manner. That is the reality. It will never be the same - and believe me that is a good thing!!

Maybe we need to print up a manual and give it to all suburban visitors. Similar to buying a travel guide to a foreign country. "Visiting the City - How to make your trip a safe and happy success"

[Landscape1]

it's always interesting to hear what the suburbanites have to say. they are afraid because of the diversity in race, belief systems, sexual preferences, etc in the urban areas. same goes for why they are leaving grps.

Stranger-

edited: attacking other forumers

Us "suburbanites" have plenty of reasons for living in areas other than the city and none of them have to do with fear or prejudice. I chose to move my family out of Grand Rapids for a variety of reasons. One of which is to give my five kids (of three diffent nationalities, you might note) room to be outdoors and interact with nature.

I don't live in Alger Heights for the same reason I don't live in a Riverhouse Condo -- it does not fit with my families needs. What could possibly make you accuse me of being racist or participating is some sort of year 2000 'white flight'?

Matt

[twoshort]

Can they not put a field office there anyways? If it's enough of a threat, I don't see why they couldn't.

[dbrok]

Part of the problem is also that the media, especially TV, has a tendency to make a huge story out of every shooting. They focus on the bad news coming out of Grand Rapids thinking that it boosts their ratings, and then never focus on the good stories happening. The media is constantly leading with negative news and it shapes people's perceptions who live in West Michigan. Media: stop reporting only about traffic accidents and murders! Nobody cares. Eh, what does it matter; hardly anyone under 35 watches the local news anyway. It's an aging dinosaur.

[GRDadof3]

It is tough to compare EGR and GR in regards to crime. Their comparitive sizes in both population and land area make it an unfair comparison. EGR has crime, but it is primarily petty type stuff, like stealing bikes from garages and driveways. And while GR has this petty stuff, it also has more violent crime, albeit in a fairly consistent pattern of neighborhoods within the city.

Maybe we need to print up a manual and give it to all suburban visitors. Similar to buying a travel guide to a foreign country. "Visiting the City - How to make your trip a safe and happy success"

[Mark Miller]

The racism card on this issue is pretty tired and played out, but that does not stop it from being played at all levels - as shown by the comments of one of the members of the GRPS board a few weeks ago - essentially calling the people who send their kids to charter schools racists. Remember this person is an elected official who chose to make alarming statements rather than to get off her ass and actually have some kind of positive impact. Which by the way, all indicators are that the board in general has relatively done nothing of substance to improve the schools (or its perception) for years now.

Landscape 1, your reasons for leaving are just like many others. Much of it boils down to the quality of life decisions, especially as they relate to one's own children. The people move out because it is better somewhere else, not because they are particularly worried about a black guy walking down their street or some guy with a pierced tongue and tattooed arms.

It is harder to raise kids in the city than it is in a suburb. Primarily it is harder to negotiate the schools and harder to get them to school (ie -driving them to a charter academy). The closer to nature thing is dubious at best, but I do understand your rationale and ultimately that boils down to lifestyle. The benefits to city living for kids is that they end up with a much richer experience (IMO) because of the diversity - not just people, but buildings, uses, sounds, activity, etc. You trade these things, or at least proximity to these things, to be near other things, like nature or farm fields, or lakes or seclusion.

GRDad - My brochure was more of a joke than anything else. "How to properly use a city without getting mugged, acosted, kidnapped, held hostage, shot by a gang member, panhandled or soiled"

Some tips may include:

1. Parking will NOT be less than 100 feet from the building you want to go to. You will need to actually park your car and walk. This will entail you looking for a parking space (and maybe paying for it - gasp - so bring some change), and then walking on the sidewalk (see number 2) to your destination.

2. Note that sidewalks are for you to walk on, they are those concrete things between the street and the building.

3. Cities by definition are places where many people, with many different backgrounds, beliefs, morals, and ethnicity congregate for living and working. Due to this large concentration of people, there will be a higher percentage of people who may not have the best intentions in mind. You will need to pay attention, remember this is not Disney World. Keep your eyes open!!

[concretepoem]

....where a huge chunk of shootings, gang warfare and murders occur in the city...

[blueman459]

I usually sit back and monitor the board reading about the development of the city. However being a Police Officer in the city I would like to chime in. The city has endured numerous cutbacks in the last 5-7 years. We use to have around 400 cops and I think we are at around 320. I think the department would love to add permanent bike patrols and foot patrols but its not reasonable. We barely have enough cops to cover shifts let alone to have specialty units. It's sad that it has come to this but I think were doing the best we can. In reference to the crime rate, it's not out of control yet but if we don't get a handle on it it may be. It's nice that the warm weather is finally gone because that will cool things off for a few months. I know its depressing but if the news reported on everything that happened in the city, there wouldn't be anytime to report on anythig else. If you don't believe me go to Mlive.com and listen to the scanner. As citizens of the city feel free to come up and talk to us. Sometimes we feel as if everyone is against us and we can't do anything right. So when you see the us out on the street say hi..

[Veloise]

... As citizens of the city feel free to come up and talk to us. Sometimes we feel as if everyone is against us and we can't do anything right. So when you see the us out on the street say hi..

[PR-15]

I may have missed a reference here at UP on the tragedy that occured a week or so ago at photographer Jeff Dykehouse's live/work studio along the newly rejuvinated Ave. of the Arts along Division. But it might be appropriate to mention it and pose some questions in this thread.

Basically what happened was a career criminal with a long record forceably smashed a window and broke into Jeff's studio/home at 12:30 at night intent on robbing the place. Unfortunately to protect himself within the confines of his small studio/home, Jeff had to resort to shooting him after warning the intruder he had a gun and to get out. The intruder remained aggressive. What resulted was a nightmare, the intruder was shot and killed. And Jeff is left to live with the pieces of that violent invasion of his home.

Jeff is arguably the nicest guy on the planet. He spends his career photographing terminally ill children for their families. Jeff's photos of that child live forever and help the families to heal after the child is gone.

Jeff was committed to living in Dwelling Place's Avenue of the Arts, a promising project but in a tougher section of Division long beleaguered by crime and homelessness. The presence of Jeff and all the other artists living in this area was really helping to change the perception of that area.

So, I ask if you think this incident will negatively impact this area and the willingness of other artists to move into the area. What about the perception of potential custiomers in this area?

Lastly, Jeff wasn't some gun toting cowboy. He only recently acquired a firearm after someone wielded a knife in his space during store hours. It demonstrates how dangerous that area is.

[Captain_Planet]

In reference to the original 2 questions:

1) Reducing crime may help, but will not change suburbanite's perceptions.

2) Most suburbanites understand that the demographic composition of the city is not homogenous. It took me less than a month to locate the criminal hotspots in GR when I moved here 2 years ago - it's not rocket science.

Now, if the city life vs. suburban life debate is nearing conclusion, perhaps we can move onto the country music vs. classic rock debate...I just heard some woman referred to Tim McGraw and Faith Hill as "that toothless hillbilly and his trashy wife". The nerve of some people...

[GRDadof3]

In reference to the original 2 questions:

1) Reducing crime may help, but will not change suburbanite's perceptions.

2) Most suburbanites understand that the demographic composition of the city is not homogenous. It took me less than a month to locate the criminal hotspots in GR when I moved here 2 years ago - it's not rocket science.

Now, if the city life vs. suburban life debate is nearing conclusion, perhaps we can move onto the country music vs. classic rock debate...I just heard some woman referred to Tim McGraw and Faith Hill as "that toothless hillbilly and his trashy wife". The nerve of some people...

[GR Jackson]

I don't think the debate is suburban life vs. urban life, it is more about trying to change suburban perceptions about urban life.

[Sailor]

I don't think the debate is suburban life vs. urban life, it is more about trying to change suburban perceptions about urban life.

[Mark Miller]

Is it really about changing perceptions, though? Much of the debate seems to me to be about changing people -- changing what they do and changing who they are.

Some people like green beans; I do not. There are those who love modern art and those who don't. Those who enjoy hip-hop and those who don't. Those who are morning people and those who prefer to stay up all night.

And some people enjoy wandering up Division at midnight to experience the art, the bars, the street life, and the excitement. There are other people who have determined that it's not for them.

They don't feel safe downtown the way many people (myself included) do not feel safe on rollercoasters. I know intellectually that I'm not likely to get hurt on the Demon at Great America, but I still don't like it and don't want to go on it. I do, however, love downtown settings and lived in Chicago for years, which isn't for everyone.

Are we really trying to change perceptions (which may be accurate, by the way), or changing what some people are comfortable with?

Do we really want everyone to be comfortable in urban settings, draining rural areas even further, destroying the economic engine of suburban retail, increasing the crowding of urban areas?

No, I don't think so. I think what we need is more subtle than that. We need to develop a downtown atmosphere that appeals to a broader base. That includes people who are not now and never will be comfortable in "gritty, real" downtown areas.

[GR Jackson]

"Do we really want everyone to be comfortable in urban settings, draining rural areas even further, destroying the economic engine of suburban retail, increasing the crowding of urban areas?"

Do we want everyone to be comfortable in urban settings? Yes

Draining rural areas even further? Rural areas by definition are void of people, buildings, etc. They are, or should be, for the preservation of nature and farms- which leads to growing and cultivating food. They should not be about building subdivisions, Walmarts and commerce (except as it relates to growing food). So I wouldn't think of it as draining as much as preservation and conservation. Especially if we Americans want to continue to eat our cheese doodles and pop pies.

destroying the economic engine of suburban retail Yes, by all means destroy it, as it is not sustainable practice. Commerce is appropriate in cities, towns, villages and neighborhoods - integrated and walkable. That is the only sustainable method, long term.

increasing the crowding of urban areas What our cities, towns and villages face is not an issue of overcrowding, it is an issue of flight and underutilization. It is an issue of commerce being sucked away by suburban development.

It may well be about changing people, particularly about changing their habits and what they do. Because what people do presently, for the most part, is not sustainable practice. We need to, as a nation, reinvigorate and repopulate cities, towns and villages and that will inevitably be accomplished by changing the way people live and work and their perceptions and habits. Frankly, up to this point in time, our habits have been manipulated by Euclidean zoning, modern planning, cheap oil, bankers, developers, marketing machines, tax laws, special interests groups and an entire slew of other interests. So there is nothing wrong with changing that manipulation. We can either do it now by choice or do it in the future, when circumstances force it to change.

Crime in the city is just a crutch. Just like the school issue.

[MiGuyz]

Stranger-

edited: attacking other forumers

Us "suburbanites" have plenty of reasons for living in areas other than the city and none of them have to do with fear or prejudice. I chose to move my family out of Grand Rapids for a variety of reasons. One of which is to give my five kids (of three diffent nationalities, you might note) room to be outdoors and interact with nature.

I don't live in Alger Heights for the same reason I don't live in a Riverhouse Condo -- it does not fit with my families needs. What could possibly make you accuse me of being racist or participating is some sort of year 2000 'white flight'?

Matt

[seely]

I haven't read through all the posts here--my ADD is kicking in--but, I will say in the first few posts the idea of a decentralized police presence was mentioned. I like that idea. I actually like the idea of having officers regularly walking/biking/patrolling my street. I grew up in a neighborhood outside of Chicago with such a presence. The officers would patrol on foot/bike until I was about 10 (I'm 25 now), and we knew most of them on a first-name basis and they would stop to talk or at least say "hello". Crime was never really a problem in our town to begin with, but it did add a sense of security and it made the police presence less menacing. I think a big part of the problem in GR is that almost every time I see the police is when they have someone at gunpoint at the BP on Eastern, clocking speeders, or they are screaming down Fulton with their lights ablaze and sirens on at 2:10am. I rarely ever see them just "cruising"... basically, the times I notice them are when something is wrong. I really feel seeing police more in times of peace and tranquility could a) reduce crime as it would be a more visible presence and b) create a more balanced perception of crime in the city.

[PR-15]

On another note, Jeff Dykehouse will not face charges...thank god.

http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/10/shoo...ruled_just.html

What ramifications (if any) are there to Avenue of the Arts and this stretch of Division?

[concretepoem]

On another note, Jeff Dykehouse will not face charges...thank god.