A

[LA Dave]

Back when it was just plain old Kent County Airport (and located where Madison Street ended at 32nd), the Kent County airport commission was very active in trying to "land" new airlines. When the current facility opened in 1963, it took a few years but with runway expansion, the new terminal and the introduction of jets in 1968, GRR became a major intermediate airport.

What happened? When I recently flew from LAX to GRR, through ORD on United, I took a little RJ that was jammed on a Saturday afternoon. Too bad if you had missed an earlier connection. I remember when every flight from ORD to GRR was a 737 at least. Northwest is OK, if you don't mind flying out of your way north to Minneapolis or east to Detroit.

The connections can be really dicey, especially in the summer. Many times I have simply landed in Chicago and then driven up to GR. Once you get through the Dan Ryan mess, the trip is actually fairly pleasant and certainly beats the possibility of spending the night in the terminal.

This is a problem, Grand Rapids, but I don't see the political momentum behind creation of a regional airport at GRR and the essential closing of Kalamazoo/Battle Creek or Capital City. (Especially not the latter -- the capital city of a major state is going to demand air service to somewhere, not a 60 plus mile drive to get on a plane).

[MJLO]

It wouldn't be 60plus but not much less. If something like this were to happen at GRR, they'd need to majorly overhaul the terminal. Perhaps build a bigger one altogether. Cause the current one right now sucks.

[highwayguy]

I think the GR Press article really hit the nail on the head. The problem at GRR and other airports is the inability of low-cost airlines to compete, in part because the big companies will do anything it takes to force them out of a market, and the willingness of people to drive to other airports for lower fares. I decided to look up the distances to each airport, and according to Google Maps, Downtown Grand Rapids to:

GRR = 12.7 miles

MKG = 36.4 miles

AZO = 56.8 miles

LAN = 61.7 miles

FNT = 110 miles

MBS = 114 miles

SBN = 114 miles

TVC = 140 miles

DTW = 154 miles

MDW = 178 miles

TOL = 188 miles

FWA = 189 miles

ORD = 195 miles

It'll be interesting to see the results of the "leakage" study. I hope they also look at how many people are "leaking in" from other cities to GRR. My guess is that few people are going to AZO or MKG for a flight. For me it always seems to come down to flying from GRR vs. driving to DTW or ORD for a direct flight that is usually cheaper. It's a tough call sometimes, but I usually end up going with GRR and praying I don't miss a connection along the way.

[MJLO]

Being someone who flies into town alot, I almost always flight into Metro, occasionally fly into Midway, or Ohare, and have once flown into Grand Rapids itself. The difference in ticket prices is rarely under $100.

[pssirab]

I dug this up from the archives. It looks like the airlines agree that west Michigan is over served. First Delta pulls out of Lansing then United pulls out of Kalamazoo. How many of those would be passengers are going to be flying out of GRR from now on? Do we gain flights from this? Or are we the next to loose a carrier? It will be interesting to see where we are at a year from now.

[aowwt]

Just a few notes. First Holland and Muskegon would be my choices for airports to close to major commerical traffic. What I mean is no more than small commerical planes should be used at those places. I would say something on the order of 2 engine prop or small business jets. Kzoo should not be closed. Its just way to long to drive from GRR to Kzoo. As for Lansing well all I have to say is it is the state capitol no need.

Now take GRR it is by and large one of the best located airports around. It has M-11 (28th) as its northern border major roadway, M-37 (east beltline, broadmore) as its western border expressway, M-6 (Paul Henry, south beltline) as its southern freeway, and I-96 as its eastern freeway. All together with the new 36th street exit it has access that is unreal for a smallish hub airport. The cool think about the airport is this, it has two MAJOR runways of 10,000 ft for the East West and 8,500 for the North South. It also has a corporate runway of 5,000. It also has 13 gates. Now here is the other airports, Kzoo has one runway of 6,500 ft along with two smaller runways all are asphalt compared to the concrete of GRR. It currently has only 7 gates. As for Muskegon well it has 2 gates and only two runways of asphalt that are 6500 and 6100 ft long. Now for Lansing it has three runways 8000, 5000, and a business of 3600 ft all of which are asphalt. As for gates it has 9 of them. As for Holland well it does not do a lot of commerical right now and it has one runway of 6,200 ft of asphalt with no gates.

Now after reviewing this info here is my thinking. If you pull out some sat maps of each location you come to find out that both Muskegon and Kalamazoo are horrible locations for airports. Not only do they have only one major freeway connection, for Muskegon its more than likely a dangerous connection at rush hour, they have houses all around them. Frankly I find that scary to improve those airports. Now Lansing is actually in a good location like GRR and has no major housing around it, but it could have some issues in the long term if they zone the land north, west and east of it residential. As for Holland well it is a good location and has no major issues as it could serve as a good jump and for general avaition.

My next thought is this if you were to close Kzoo and Muskegon a new terminal or bigger one should be built. If they were to move all of the general avation out of the location just north of the main EW runway they could build a nice terminal there with 12 gates or so. I would also extend the NS another 1500 ft and use the present concourse for that runway. Now if 60th st south of the airport is in the way so what. It serves no purpose from what I can tell. It has nothing on it except south of M-6. Now the key thing is this, if you were to close all 3 airports, Kzoo, Musk, and Hol you will want to have a fairly high speed train running to each city to offset the non flights to those cities. Now for a rail connection to Kzoo my prefence would be a path using M-37 to Battle Creek then west to Kzoo using I-94. Now for Muskegon thats simple with I-96. As for Holland use M-6 to I-196 then bus 196.

Overall I think GRR has a great potential for the regional Airport. Considering the money the feds could save by removing the grants they currently give to Kzoo (maybe Musk) it could balance out in the long term.

Now a few people brought up the 787. Currently Boeing is looking at 3 projects to reduce the number of passenger jets it makes. The 787 is its replacement for all of the mid sized jets, ie 757 and 767. Boeing is also planning on a replacement for the 747 and 777. The final project will replace all of the smaller 717, 737 and MDs they took over. From what I read its called project yellowstone. Each has a project code and for the smaller one its Y1, the Y2 is the 787, and the Y3 will be the 747 replacement. Y3 from some reports is looking like at least a decade away from being launched. The Y1 is appearing to be the next one in the chute but could change. The problem with the Y1 is that engine technology is not there yet to see any major improvement. At present it looks like 7 to 10 percent improvement instead of say 25%. So I can see only one more number left the 797 and then we will see what they come up next.

[MJLO]

Well I don't see them ever closing the airports, but De-emphasizing passenger service and consolidating to a more central hub would make sense. I don't think you'd ever get the residents of the surrounding metros to sign on to that plan tho. GR people would be all about it, it would make the airport more of a player would derfinately lower fares

[aowwt]

well the key thing is they would only sign on IF and ONLY IF those cities get a high speed train connection. I dont think bus service will work for them.

[wingbert]

Well, what do you think? Does this news effect this discussion a little? At least in the way that it eliminates certain competitive routes, etc. for GR Ford.

From the Business Journal...

"Delta Airlines is severing service to and from Lansing

[allbusiness]

Just a few notes. First Holland and Muskegon would be my choices for airports to close to major commerical traffic. What I mean is no more than small commerical planes should be used at those places.

[jas49503]

Having just flown into muskegon, I can't see how closing that airport to commercial traffic would have any effect. with only two gates and few passengers in or out of there the addition of GRR would be minimal and not noticed if you weren't looking carefully. at the same time I don't really see any reason for it to exist either. The greatest benefit may be more flights in and out of GR if the carriers didn't have to make a stop in muskegon.

on a side note if west michigan had a train system like switzerlands it would mean that pretty much all these small airports could be closed. I traveled from lauterbrunnen to geneva with two train changes. I spent a total of maybe five minutes waiting for a train. between the to layovers. It really is impressive how smoothly they run and how pretty much every town has frequent stops with very well laid out schedules. it makes it very easy to get from one part of the county to another. lauterbrunnen the town I stayed in has 900 or so residents but still had 5 or so train departures so you could leave any time of the day and weren't waiting around all day. the major cities had connections at least every half hour. you could buy a pass card and get unlimited use of the train. it would be nice if michigan could someday get a network of trains similar to that.

[GRDadof3]

Well, what do you think? Does this news effect this discussion a little? At least in the way that it eliminates certain competitive routes, etc. for GR Ford.

From the Business Journal...

"Delta Airlines is severing service to and from Lansing’s Capital Region International Airport at the end of August and will discontinue passenger service to and from Toledo Express Airport effective Sept. 2. United Airlines will cease operations at the Kalamazoo/Battle Creek International Airport on Nov. 2."

[MJLO]

It almost sounds as if the airlines are taking the steps themselves to consolidate airline service. without the traditional pain of Michigan residents not willing to give up anything. The market where allowed will adjust itself.

[aowwt]

Yeep the problem I have with the Musky and Kzoo airports is that they have nothing but residential areas all around them. Its not like GRR where we have a industry and comerical areas built up around the airport. I think if anything GRR should look at the cargo carriers more than anything else to expand traffic. Commerical tends to go stale at times rather companies are always shipping products. They have a lot of land that is just sitting barren on the North east corner of the airport along with across from the airport and next to 96. Those areas would be prime for more cargo carriers to move into. I know Fedex uses GRR.

I do wonder what GRRs plans are after the new parking garage is built. Maybe a bigger terminal or something.

[GRDadof3]

Yeep the problem I have with the Musky and Kzoo airports is that they have nothing but residential areas all around them. Its not like GRR where we have a industry and comerical areas built up around the airport. I think if anything GRR should look at the cargo carriers more than anything else to expand traffic. Commerical tends to go stale at times rather companies are always shipping products. They have a lot of land that is just sitting barren on the North east corner of the airport along with across from the airport and next to 96. Those areas would be prime for more cargo carriers to move into. I know Fedex uses GRR.

I do wonder what GRRs plans are after the new parking garage is built. Maybe a bigger terminal or something.

[droonus2000]

well it's seems to me that they have more then enough room to expand

I was watching something on july 4th on CNBC about UPS, they use Louisvilles airport for all their air shippments, i think, going by memory here, they were said over 60% of the airports traffic was cargo, so if we could get FedEx or some other company to expand like crazy here, maybe that would open some other doors. maybe more direct flights.

[metrogrkid]

I absolutely love - WITH ALL SINCERITY - all of these gasoline-fueled decisions the airlines are making pertaining to cutting air service, consolidating regional airports and again how on-point (or not on-point) many of Metro GR's expansion decisions/opinions are/are not.

CASE 1 Dissent:

Very little demand on the GFIA - downtown route - I agree with the consultant on that. There's no residential until you get to Kalamazoo Ave and it's back to industrial by Eastern Ave. GFIA is a larger regional airport. Passengers aren't going to drive in from up north and park downtown to take the train to the airport. DeVos Place gets more regional conventions - folks more likely to drive to GR than fly. There isn't a great demand for business air passengers to downtown.

[MJLO]

i don't know if it's the wording of the post or if i'm tired but i'm confused, as to what u were trying to say? ..........eep, sorry

[Rizzo]

I could see where this is going considering Amtrak's Pere Marquette may reroute. This might actually bolster the proposal. With talk at rerouting it away from the shore to K'zoo people on the southern edge of the metropolitan area could catch a train or two to Ford. I know of a lot of folks that ride PM do this already. They take PM into CUS then transfer to a Blue line train and fly away.

[fotoman311]

I could see where this is going considering Amtrak's Pere Marquette may reroute. This might actually bolster the proposal. With talk at rerouting it away from the shore to K'zoo people on the southern edge of the metropolitan area could catch a train or two to Ford. I know of a lot of folks that ride PM do this already. They take PM into CUS then transfer to a Blue line train and fly away.

[Rizzo]

Right, but I'm assuming K'zoo just gets less desirable to fly from and Ford more desirable. However, Kzoo folks have Bluewater and Wolverine trains anyway.

By the way, some official from Lansing wrote an OPED in The Press pretty much lambasting the idea of a more centralized airport in West Michigan.

[Par75]

Well, unless GR gets a discount carrier to cause some price competition, I don't see why those K'zoo people wouldn't just be taking the Pere Marquette the other way to Midway or O'Hare to save a few hundred bucks over Ford airfares to most places.

[Rizzo]

A Grand Rapids to Detroit Monorail?

[Raildudes dad]

A Grand Rapids to Detroit Monorail?

[GRDadof3]

I laughed out loud when I read it in the paper. Spend billions to build a monorail to get a "cheap monorail fare" to Detroit for "cheap air fares". Where's the billions for the commuter rail and light rail going to come from. TIF isn't going to generate that kind of money and I haven't seen any agricultural guy having any luck raising money trees. $4-5 gasoline in Canada (it's been quite a bit more expensive there for a long time) hasn't created any demand for mass transit except for Montreal & Toronto.